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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

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6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Knit tie]

Ah so before we can explain that it's bad to invade your neighbors we have to justify all foreign policy by every NATO member state.  Just y'know, explain all of post-Westphalian diplomacy.  Perhaps as an encore solve the problem of agency?

Personally I think it's a very rude thing to expect someone to provide all evidence about a huge number of things while clinging to flimsy excuses.  But hey, apparently I just dont understand rudeness.  It's a polite thing to take cheap shots and an impolite thing to call people dicks for doing it.

I think you are just a tsundere in denial. #joke #adhominem

... stepped into some weird shit, apparently.

Any actual confirmation that youtube video means anything? Proof it was who they say it was, any signs of actual substantial involvement, etc., etc.?

Though, uh. No, Nuland hasn't apparently said anything on the subject*, from what I could find out checking those and a few other sources. Someone else said some diplomatic non-speak (which I'd honestly expect to come out sounding about the same regardless of whether the video was real or not), according to the articles flapping around, but that was about it. Not really sparking my US!shadowpuppetting switch. Maybe a "politician being politician" one (assuming that's actually who was involved in the conversation), but not much more than that.

*Did Pyatt? Standard cursory skimming and whatnot didn't notice any mention on that end. Most I can find on apparent official statement comes from Psaki's words a few days after the video was posted.

I think that US involvement is plausible. Not certain by any means, but plausible. The phone call's certainly true, at least.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11213255/Vladimir-Putin-says-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-Soviet-Unions-pact-with-Adolf-Hitlers-Nazi-Germany.html

Russian president says he sees nothing wrong with treaty with Nazi Germany that led to the carve-up of Poland - and blames Britain for destroying any chance of an anti-fascist front

Oh Putin, you silly

[Knit tie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11213255/Vladimir-Putin-says-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-Soviet-Unions-pact-with-Adolf-Hitlers-Nazi-Germany.html

Russian president says he sees nothing wrong with treaty with Nazi Germany that led to the carve-up of Poland - and blames Britain for destroying any chance of an anti-fascist front

Oh Putin, you silly

Can we read his actual speech? That's not the first time the British media tries to align Putin with Hitler. I think Anatoly Karlin did a nice piece on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

[smjjames]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11213255/Vladimir-Putin-says-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-Soviet-Unions-pact-with-Adolf-Hitlers-Nazi-Germany.html

Russian president says he sees nothing wrong with treaty with Nazi Germany that led to the carve-up of Poland - and blames Britain for destroying any chance of an anti-fascist front

Oh Putin, you silly

Can we read his actual speech? That's not the first time the British media tries to align Putin with Hitler. I think Anatoly Karlin did a nice piece on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

From that link:

10 March, 1939 – Stalin declares the main warmongers to be England and France, not Germany.

Lolwhat..... I should note that Germany attacked first, not England or France. This is getting into armchair general territory though.

[Knit tie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11213255/Vladimir-Putin-says-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-Soviet-Unions-pact-with-Adolf-Hitlers-Nazi-Germany.html

Russian president says he sees nothing wrong with treaty with Nazi Germany that led to the carve-up of Poland - and blames Britain for destroying any chance of an anti-fascist front

Oh Putin, you silly

Can we read his actual speech? That's not the first time the British media tries to align Putin with Hitler. I think Anatoly Karlin did a nice piece on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

From that link:

10 March, 1939 – Stalin declares the main warmongers to be England and France, not Germany.

Lolwhat..... I should note that Germany attacked first, not England or France. This is getting into armchair general territory though.

Accuse your opponents of evil deeds, connection to reality welcomed but not mandatory - every politician knows that.

EDIT: Inb4 "Putin does this to the west!"

[Helgoland]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11213255/Vladimir-Putin-says-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-Soviet-Unions-pact-with-Adolf-Hitlers-Nazi-Germany.html

Russian president says he sees nothing wrong with treaty with Nazi Germany that led to the carve-up of Poland - and blames Britain for destroying any chance of an anti-fascist front

Oh Putin, you silly

Can we read his actual speech? That's not the first time the British media tries to align Putin with Hitler. I think Anatoly Karlin did a nice piece on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

From that link:

10 March, 1939 – Stalin declares the main warmongers to be England and France, not Germany.

Lolwhat..... I should note that Germany attacked first, not England or France. This is getting into armchair general territory though.

This used to be the official Stalinist position: I have a great book about Communist propaganda in the interwar period, and it's funny to see them pull one 180 after the other because of Stalin's  foreign policy.

[LordSlowpoke]

title?

mite b amusin

[Sergarr]

Funny, I distinctly remember Putin just a few years ago saying that we should atone for Katyn.

Now apparently he's slowly backing off into space?

[Knit tie]

Funny, I distinctly remember Putin just a few years ago saying that we should atone for Katyn.

Now apparently he's slowly backing off into space?

История - продажная девка политики.
History is a prostitute of politics.

[Guardian G.I.]

Spoiler: Mad Max's school of engineering flourishes in Ukraine on both sides of the front line (click to show/hide)

[Helgoland]

title?

mite b amusin

"Utopie und Mythos der Weltrevolution: Zur Geschichte der Komintern 1920 - 1940"
https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm?method=simpleSearch&cqlMode=true&query=idn%3D453784194

I haven't been able too find a translation to English; the title roughly translates to "Utopia and mythos of the world revolution: On the history of the Comintern 1920 - 1940". It's a collection of articles from the two main news outlets of the Comintern, the Inprecor and the Rundschau (wasn't able to find the Englisch name) and shows in a very neat manner the change in the self-image of the Commintern, slowly turning from a revolutionary avantgarde to a Stalinist propaganda machine with all the internal inconsistencies brought forth by his gambits.

[Knit tie]

Do I even want to do this, knowing that mainiac, Mictlan, the Finnish army guy, and, above all, Ukrainian Ranger are just going to keep telling me "Lol eat vata Putin is invading countries like Hitler and if he didn't powertrip like Saakashvili everything would've been nice and peaceful?"

Yes, yes I do. I mentioned I like SM didn't I?

Anyway, Kremlin shill argument number who cares: what Russia is doing in Ukraine is not really an invasion, but rather "providing help to its allies", like what the western powers did in the Russian civil war.

[Erkki]

We could take you more seriously if you didnt go the strawman route.

In the end I think the foundations of our values and principles may be too different. Maybe they also are between many Russians and the "West". I can understand your and other pro-Russian/anti-West points of views but I still find them at least for the most parts subjective and out of proportion, unacceptable and/or flawed.

[Sheb]

Knit tie, again, you're assuming the revolt just popped into being out of nowhere, whereas it's pretty clear it would not have happened in the first place without Russian support, propaganda offensive and takeover of Crimea. If you're looking for an historical analogy, it's closer to the shit the US used to pull in Latin America.

[Knit tie]

We could take you more seriously if you didnt go the strawman route.

In the end I think the foundations of our values and principles may be too different. Maybe they also are between many Russians and the "West". I can understand your and other pro-Russian/anti-West points of views but I still find them at least for the most parts subjective and out of proportion, unacceptable and/or flawed.

Please don't take my posturing seriously, I write deliberately inflammatory posts like this for fun and don't actually consider you to be as stupid or ineloquent as I claimed you were. It would be really stupid of me to actually deny that Putin's the main cause of the rebels still holding out (unlike my denial of Russian forces being in Ukraine, where I really didn't know better) and that his annexation of Crimea was a big, unlawful middle finger to the entire NATO out of, among other reasons, spite. My main argument is that this conflict is unjustly polarised and propagandised not only by the Russian side (We are strong, glory to Holy Rus, death to NATO!) but also by the Anglo-American one (Putin's a madman! A horrible madman!), while reality is more complex, nuanced and morally grey than just Russia invading a neighbouring country in an expansionistic fit.

Knit tie, again, you're assuming the revolt just popped into being out of nowhere, whereas it's pretty clear it would not have happened in the first place without Russian support, propaganda offensive and takeover of Crimea. If you're looking for an historical analogy, it's closer to the shit the US used to pull in Latin America.

I think that you are correct  and Russian annexation of Crimea was what finally drove the separatists into action, if not for that, the Donbass simply would've been in a state of social unrest with maybe some protests. But Vova just chopping off a chunk of Ukraine after filling it with soldiers was what catalysed the fear and distrust of the new government into a driving force for an actual violent uprising and an attempt at separation. What's really up to debate is if Putin knew about it and planned for it, or if he just wanted to get his military port in Crimea back under his wing, and then saw excrements hitting the fan in mainland Ukraine and decided to capitalise on that. But I also would like to point out that intra-Ukrainian conflicts between the west and the east were the ultimate cause of this ultimately grassroots rebellion, most likely just as in the Euromaidan.