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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

2 (11.8%)

Serhiy Tihipko

0 (0%)

Mykhailo Dobkin

0 (0%)

Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Helgoland]

Because they thought we were buds now and so Russia was a good place to invest in.

After 2008, they thought that Russia was a friend of the West?

Maybe not friend, but certainly a friendly power - Germany certainly thought so, and many people - myself included - had a good opinion of Putin. And thus many thought that they could make good money by investing in Russia...

[Knit tie]

Knit: The Ukrainian fascists are a big deal in the German press - maybe you're reading the wrong newspapers...

That's true and I admire that! But unfortunately, the mainstream medias of other countries and especially of the USA and Britain keep denying this fact.

Also, you said 'ideological conviction' - what ideology? In Germany he's often called a revisionist - see above -, but our press is not completely reliable when it comes to more... subtle matters.

What I meant by "ideological conviction" is the Cold War "us vs. them" mentality, and also its derivative, "them is the enemy" mentality.  That is, Putin is willing to make certain moves not because they are advantageous to him but solely because they are disadvantageous to what he sees as his main geopolitical enemy. Or he can just be powertripping, like so many other rulers have done in the past.

Plus I just noticed that you seem to be surprisingly okay with the fascists among the rebels - at least you don't mention them at all... What's the benefit of supporting one sort of fascist against the other?

Please don't take this as an insult, Helgo, but I think that many Germans are rather overly concerned about the presence of faschists and nazis everywhere - that is, you guys think that just having a bunch of ultraradical nutcases in a given country or organisation is inherently bad, while in most cases it really doesn't make a difference. The rebel forces do have a few russian neo-nazis in them, including that one guy who posed with a swastika in front of a pile of corpses, just like, I am sure, the regular Russian army, the Russian government and the general Russian populace. However, unlike in Ukraine, where openly "social-nationalistic" people have been put in positions of authority and allowed to further their political agendas, in the DNR and the LNR (and in Russia and most other sociopolitical organisations) the neo-nazis and fascists are relegated to the political periphery and are limited to an occasional march or two. The only reason why I am making such a big deal about fascists in Ukraine is because of their significant and increasing military and political power there and the continued infiltration of their ideology into the national consciousness. If the Ukrainian neo-nazis were limited to a bunch of guys in an otherwise non-nazi organisation, I would've never mentioned them.

PSEUDOEDIT: Jesus Christ so many ninjas.

[mainiac]

After 2008, they thought that Russia was a friend of the West?

Yes?  Shades of grey man.

[Helgoland]

Please don't take this as an insult, Helgo, but I think that many Germans are rather overly concerned about the presence of faschists and nazis everywhere - that is, you guys think that just having a bunch of ultraradical nutcases in a given country or organisation is inherently bad, while in most cases it really doesn't make a difference. The rebel forces do have a few russian neo-nazis in them, including that one guy who posed with a swastika in front of a pile of corpses, just like, I am sure, the regular Russian army, the Russian government and the general Russian populace. However, unlike in Ukraine, where openly "social-nationalistic" people have been put in positions of authority and allowed to further their political agendas, in the DNR and the LNR (and in Russia and most other sociopolitical organisations) the neo-nazis and fascists are relegated to the political periphery and are limited to an occasional march or two. The only reason why I am making such a big deal about fascists in Ukraine is because of their significant and increasing military and political power there and the continued infiltration of their ideology into the national consciousness. If the Ukrainian neo-nazis were limited to a bunch of guys in an otherwise non-nazi organisation, I would've never mentioned them.

It's hard to insult me, Knit - look at the Mideast pol thread and you'll see I'm aware of that bias. But the neo-nazis in the Ukrainian parliament only have a tiny portion of the seats, they're politically unimportant - and those who volunteer (not 'volunteer', though) to fight for the separatists, to die for Russia's glory certainly are on the far right end of the spectrum as well.
And the only reason that infiltration - as you call it - could take place is the war in the East! If it hadn't been for Russia's support of the rebels, there wouldn't have been nazi batallions and nazi commanders and important nazi politicians. They could only become so important because Russia deliberately overpowered the regular forces of Ukraine. The only reason the more extreme brands of nationalism are on the rise in Ukraine is that the country is at war - if I was Ukrainian, even I would probably go back to that old slogan: Nur ein toter Russe ist ein guter Russe.
I try to be aware of my bias, Knit, but it's taken me a long time to achieve a degree of success. Your current opinion is quite young, isn't it? Maybe you should start evaluating your own bias some more - the past few pages have brought forward some remarkable examples of selective perception on your part.

[Sergarr]

The neo-nazis were one of the most organized forces against Yanukovich and they're the reason why the protesters were able to push the police like they did.

Politically insignificant they aren't.

[smjjames]

Um, I don't think right winger automatically means neo-nazi.....

You guys know more than I do about the percentages of whatever groups were in Maidan.

[mainiac]

The neo-nazis were one of the most organized forces against Yanukovich and they're the reason why the protesters were able to push the police like they did.

Politically insignificant they aren't.

Yeah but Vladamir Putin is a neo-nazi and neo-nazis have been running the Russian government for years.

No I don't have any evidence, it's just something that I felt like saying.

[Knit tie]

Please don't take this as an insult, Helgo, but I think that many Germans are rather overly concerned about the presence of faschists and nazis everywhere - that is, you guys think that just having a bunch of ultraradical nutcases in a given country or organisation is inherently bad, while in most cases it really doesn't make a difference. The rebel forces do have a few russian neo-nazis in them, including that one guy who posed with a swastika in front of a pile of corpses, just like, I am sure, the regular Russian army, the Russian government and the general Russian populace. However, unlike in Ukraine, where openly "social-nationalistic" people have been put in positions of authority and allowed to further their political agendas, in the DNR and the LNR (and in Russia and most other sociopolitical organisations) the neo-nazis and fascists are relegated to the political periphery and are limited to an occasional march or two. The only reason why I am making such a big deal about fascists in Ukraine is because of their significant and increasing military and political power there and the continued infiltration of their ideology into the national consciousness. If the Ukrainian neo-nazis were limited to a bunch of guys in an otherwise non-nazi organisation, I would've never mentioned them.

It's hard to insult me, Knit - look at the Mideast pol thread and you'll see I'm aware of that bias. But the neo-nazis in the Ukrainian parliament only have a tiny portion of the seats, they're politically unimportant - and those who volunteer (not 'volunteer', though) to fight for the separatists, to die for Russia's glory certainly are on the far right end of the spectrum as well.
And the only reason that infiltration - as you call it - could take place is the war in the East! If it hadn't been for Russia's support of the rebels, there wouldn't have been nazi batallions and nazi commanders and important nazi politicians. They could only become so important because Russia deliberately overpowered the regular forces of Ukraine. The only reason the more extreme brands of nationalism are on the rise in Ukraine is that the country is at war - if I was Ukrainian, even I would probably go back to that old slogan: Nur ein toter Russe ist ein guter Russe.
I try to be aware of my bias, Knit, but it's taken me a long time to achieve a degree of success. Your current opinion is quite young, isn't it? Maybe you should start evaluating your own bias some more - the past few pages have brought forward some remarkable examples of selective perception on your part.

Forgive me, Helgo, but I don't really think I've been irrationally biased so far. The photo? I admit I was overexcited and overeager there, first unquestioningly believing the "1st Channel"  and then equally unquestioningly believing the article you gave me about how the photo is fake, while in reality it appears its validity is neither certain not certainly false. Then I insisted that I am not going to believe that there are Russian forces in Ukraine until somebody presents me with some actual evidence (not naked claims by the authorities and wikipedia articles, which I, as a man from an extremely propaganda-filled environment am disinclined to trust) to the contrary, and when Sergarr so kindly did, I immediately conceded - how is that selective perception? But we both are digressing here and devolving into mutual veiled insults and ad hominem attacks, so let's not talk about each other any further.

To go back to our "chicken and egg argument", I think that the neo-nazi movement came first, as it was on the shoulders of the right-wing radicals that the current government came to power. And as I've already mentioned the number of seats the Ukrainian nationalists and radicals have got in the parliament is not really representative of their actual political importance. As for the rebels, I believe what we have there is another Spanish Civil War, so to speak, where many volunteers of widely different ideologies, far-right, far-left and all the shades of moderate, flocked together under one banner to oppose the fascist Franko forces united by a common enemy.

[Guardian G.I.]

As for the rebels, I believe what we have there is another Spanish Civil War, so to speak, where many volunteers of widely different ideologies, far-right, far-left and all the shades of moderate, flocked together under one banner to oppose the fascist Franko forces united by a common enemy.

Also, just like in the Spanish Civil War, some volunteers are disguised foreign troopers sent to assist the opposing parties, ranging from the already mentioned Novorossiyan "voentorg" to American, Polish, Lithuanian and some other mercenaries allegedly fighting for Ukraine.

We can hope that unlike the war in Spain, the war in Ukraine won't turn out to be preceding a new World War.

[smjjames]

The Spanish Civil War had nothing to do with WWII, it just happens to precede it.

[Knit tie]

As for the rebels, I believe what we have there is another Spanish Civil War, so to speak, where many volunteers of widely different ideologies, far-right, far-left and all the shades of moderate, flocked together under one banner to oppose the fascist Franko forces united by a common enemy.

Also, just like in the Spanish Civil War, some volunteers are disguised foreign troopers sent to assist the opposing parties, ranging from the already mentioned Novorossiyan "voentorg" to American, Polish, Lithuanian and some other mercenaries allegedly fighting for Ukraine.

We can hope that unlike the war in Spain, the war in Ukraine won't turn out to be preceding a new World War.

Highly unlikely, considering how devastated Ukraine is. Even if the worst case scenario happens and rabid nazis establish a one-party dictatorship, the Ukrainian military and economy will be in absolute shambles and all we'll get is another -stan.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

What WW3? World vs Russia is not WW3, it is the world versus Russia war. What other sides for WW3 possible?

[Darvi]

Well GI has some abbr tags about that in his post.

[smjjames]

What WW3? World vs Russia is not WW3, it is the world versus Russia war. What other sides for WW3 possible?

Exactly, WWI and WWII are called that because it took place all over the world. I'm not sure when WWII started getting called a world war though.

As for other sides, China refuses to touch the whole Europe conflict even with a mile long pole, however, they might use the opportunity to press their regional power. If China does something, it wouldn't be because that they are allied with Russia.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I think China will dislike if Russia will go and try to destroy Chinese main trade partners. If China will not stay neutral it will have more reasons to take NATO side than Russian side.

I can't find any country that will ally with Russia, except Belarus, that will have no other choice but take sides.