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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

2 (11.8%)

Serhiy Tihipko

0 (0%)

Mykhailo Dobkin

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Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Sergarr]

I really wish people could talk in these threads without resorting to passive-aggression.

I propose banning every single media outlet from using irony, sarcasm, or any words that can be interpreted as the inverse of the intended meaning.

[Knit tie]

The question I've been pondering for the last months: What does Russia want out of Ukraine? Crimea I can (somewhat) understand, but a rotten Soviet industrial area ruined by war?

I think that Putin only wanted Crimea and nothing else. But, brilliant opportunist that he is, when the situation in Donbass deteriorated, he decided to take advantage of that in order to say "fuck you" to the West. But speaking of Soviet-era industrial areas, Donbass is not that bad of a place economically speaking. Certainly better than the majority of the western Ukraine.

I'll trust that these statistics are correct, but a couple of things come to mind:

1) These regions have been wrecked by the war, destroying much of the infrastructure that gave the region its comparative wealth.
2) That article takes exports as a measure of economic well-being; but the economies of the West and East differ greatly in their degree of export orientation.
3) The industries in the East are not competitive on the international market and always had to be subsidized - by the rest of Ukraine! These statistics might look very different once we take out the effect of those subsidies.
4) Even if gaining the Donbass is a net plus for Russia, is the economical advantage big enough to justify the war's direct and indirect costs?

Partially ninja'd by UR.

It's not that Russia wanted Donbass because of its economic value or anything, it's that it was rather quite different economically to the rest of the country, which only exacerbated the tensions. Most of Donbass lies in wreckage now, just as you said, and whoever wins will have to pay a pretty penny to get everything back in working order, so of course there will be no economic gain for the victor.

@Sergarr: I see, thank you. So it turns out I really was wrong and the Russian forces really were involved in combat, at least that one time, and not only in supplying and training - good to know. Russia appears to be picking up the US's way of fighting really fast.

Mainiac, please refrain from insulting my and miljan's intelligence. We may not agree with your opinion, but that doesn't mean that we are inferior to you or deserving of open derision or mockery. And miljan, you are "good" as well - replying to an insult with an insult is just childish.

If you dont want to be accused of believing conspiracy theories then stop saying things that implies a conspiracy by every major government and media outlet in the world outside of Russia.

What conspiracy theory? But more to the point, if you don't want me to follow conspiracy theories then please do what Sergarr did and give me some actual, reliable evidence to the contrary instead of claiming that I am stupid. I am not a hardheaded fanatic - show me some proof that what I believe is wrong and I'll gladly change my point of view.

[Helgoland]

Heh, Knit, now that you've conceded that Russian soldiers indeed were active in Ukraine - and the hysterical soccer moms were right - what incorrect statements of Western media are left?

(And I still don't understand why Putin supports the separatists - he can only lose economically, he can only lose internationally, and he didn't desperately need the popularity boost. Is there maybe some truth in the rumors that he is a revisionist, one who wants to see the Russian/Soviet empire rise again?)

[Darvi]

Maybe he doesn't want to lose ideologically. It takes guts to say "Know what, maybe I shouldn't be doing this." and then retreat from a war that you've been involved in for months. It implies that you were wrong, after all.

[Knit tie]

Heh, Knit, now that you've conceded that Russian soldiers indeed were active in Ukraine - and the hysterical soccer moms were right - what incorrect statements of Western media are left?

Why, the one where Ukraine is a peaceful, human-right respecting democracy that is ruled by a freely and fairly elected president and a moderate, liberal senate that both freely choose to be a part of the prosperous West and is not at all a personal playground of West-supported corrupt oligarchs with private armies and their increasingly more powerful ultranationalistic cronies that have russophobia as one of their main ideological crutches, of course!

(And I still don't understand why Putin supports the separatists - he can only lose economically, he can only lose internationally, and he didn't desperately need the popularity boost. Is there maybe some truth in the rumors that he is a revisionist, one who wants to see the Russian/Soviet empire rise again?)

In my opinion, Putin supports the rebellion firstly because he, just like the USA, is still thinking that the Cold War is going on and that it is his duty to put wrenches in the enemy's works and secondly because he wants to show off his power to the world. Nothing rational here - just pure ideological conviction.

[Helgoland]

Darvi: But he never officially admitted being involved! He could just let the separatists wither, retaining some control via regional autonomy. I'm sure a behind-the-scenes deal could be worked out if he was in principle willing to end the war.

Knit: The Ukrainian fascists are a big deal in the German press - maybe you're reading the wrong newspapers...
Also, you said 'ideological conviction' - what ideology? In Germany he's often called a revisionist - see above -, but our press is not completely reliable when it comes to more... subtle matters.
Plus I just noticed that you seem to be surprisingly okay with the fascists among the rebels - at least you don't mention them at all... What's the benefit of supporting one sort of fascist against the other?

[smjjames]

Heh, Knit, now that you've conceded that Russian soldiers indeed were active in Ukraine - and the hysterical soccer moms were right - what incorrect statements of Western media are left?

(And I still don't understand why Putin supports the separatists - he can only lose economically, he can only lose internationally, and he didn't desperately need the popularity boost. Is there maybe some truth in the rumors that he is a revisionist, one who wants to see the Russian/Soviet empire rise again?)

Hasn't he pratically stated that he wants the Russian/Soviet empire to rise again? Not so much outright stating that than saying that he wants to return to the glory and power that Russia once had. However, wanting the glory and power of the past alone doesn't neccesarily mean that you will invade former territories.

There are many ways to get to the past glory and power, this is just the path that Putin chose to take.

Heh, Knit, now that you've conceded that Russian soldiers indeed were active in Ukraine - and the hysterical soccer moms were right - what incorrect statements of Western media are left?

Why, the one where Ukraine is a peaceful, human-right respecting democracy that is ruled by a freely and fairly elected president and a moderate, liberal senate that both freely choose to be a part of the prosperous West and is not at all a personal playground of West-supported corrupt oligarchs with private armies and their increasingly more powerful ultranationalistic cronies that have russophobia as one of their main ideological crutches, of course!

(And I still don't understand why Putin supports the separatists - he can only lose economically, he can only lose internationally, and he didn't desperately need the popularity boost. Is there maybe some truth in the rumors that he is a revisionist, one who wants to see the Russian/Soviet empire rise again?)

In my opinion, Putin supports the rebellion firstly because he, just like the USA, is still thinking that the Cold War is going on and that it is his duty to put wrenches in the enemy's works and secondly because he wants to show off his power to the world. Nothing rational here - just pure ideological conviction.

Uh, no, the US doesn't think the cold war is still going on. There are some politicians who think that it's still going on though. But some politicians =/= the whole US or the whole government.

It certainly does seem like the cold war is trying to return though.

[mainiac]

In my opinion, Putin supports the rebellion firstly because he, just like the USA, is still thinking that the Cold War is going on and that it is his duty to put wrenches in the enemy's works and secondly because he wants to show off his power to the world. Nothing rational here - just pure ideological conviction.

What cold war? The West was pouring money into Russia as quickly as it could until 2014.

What ideology?  Putin doesn't champion any cause besides advancing one nation at the expense of others.

What the hell kind of western media sources are you watching that you would get these notions of the west thinking Ukraine is a perfectly functioning democracy?

[LordSlowpoke]

There are some politicians who think that it's still going on though. But some politicians =/= the whole US or the whole government.

with the entrenched nature of your politicians, this might as well be equal to a large amount of america itself

if we're going to pull et tu out of our asses let's be consistent at least

[Sergarr]

In my opinion, Putin supports the rebellion firstly because he, just like the USA, is still thinking that the Cold War is going on and that it is his duty to put wrenches in the enemy's works and secondly because he wants to show off his power to the world. Nothing rational here - just pure ideological conviction.

What cold war? The West was pouring money into Russia as quickly as it could until 2014.

What ideology?  Putin doesn't champion any cause besides advancing one nation at the expense of others.

What the hell kind of western media sources are you watching that you would get these notions of the west thinking Ukraine is a perfectly functioning democracy?

Clarify what countries do you mean by "The West". The West isn't some kind of unified mega-empire.

[mainiac]

Western nations such as EU member states and the US were pouring money into Russia as quickly as investment opportunities could be found.  That's the reason the sanctions matter, it's the end of a trade relationship that was very, very good for Russia.  (Also good for everyone else but that benefit is diluted.)

[Sergarr]

Western nations such as EU member states and the US were pouring money into Russia as quickly as investment opportunities could be found.

Why?

[mainiac]

Because they thought we were buds now and so Russia was a good place to invest in.

[smjjames]

Western nations such as EU member states and the US were pouring money into Russia as quickly as investment opportunities could be found.

Why?

I imagine that the oil and natural gas trade would be a part of it. Not to make the west seem like greedy capitalists, but aren't we all, even Russians?

[Sergarr]

Because they thought we were buds now and so Russia was a good place to invest in.

After 2008, they thought that Russia was a friend of the West?