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Petro Poroshenko

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Total Members Voted: 17

[miljan]

Lets say it simply. There is no real proof that russia is sending anything in ukraine (no, wiki links are not proofs, they are just repost of medias, that we all know are full of propaganda). The pictures showing trucks and few tanks, that is ukraine using also, moving in east are also not real prof. The reason is because a lot of weapons and armor pro russian got from ukraine. Some are even recorded on videos on beginning of the conflict, when uk send it soldiers to east and some joind/gave weapons to rebels, or other videos that show left weapons from fleeing uk.

But that also doesnt really mean that russia is not helping in arming rebels, because I am pretty sure they are doing it.

This video is probably that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwSgMF8Erh8

Weapons and armor that was send from russia (again no real proof, but logic) and now pro russian are using them. Are there russian militery in them? Probably not, becuse there is no reason for it, as you have other people that can use it and control it and that are rebels/locals.

Anyway back to some videos

Pro russian fucking around
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2507tX_AOQ

Pro russian hit and run
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OAkM5gE374

Pro russian doing the same thing uk are, hitting a city  under uk control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii-NAdheFAs

Ukraine BMP got destroyed on video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqXiFZj2mTM

[mainiac]

There are plenty of Russian battle tourist volunteers fighting in Ukraine right now, and I am sure a fair bit of them are current or former members of the Russian military. Just because a Russian soldier was fighting with the rebels does not mean that he was doing so on official orders. And please don't imply that I am some sort of rabidly fanatical patriot who fails to see the horrible evil of despotic Russia out of willfull blindness - the only reason why I don't believe that there are any Russian forces in Ukraine is because I am yet to see any concrete evidence of them being there.

Multiple divisions went AWOL together, taking tanks and heavy equipment with them, lost some of that equipment, returned and were awarded the Surovov medal?  Yeah, that sounds legit.

Lets say it simply.

Okay let's say it simply.  There is the obvious truth.  Some people believe conspiracy theories and like all conspiracy theories the burden of proof is put on the people who believe the obvious truth and the conspiracy theorists will move the goalposts and dismiss any proof.

Have fun living in your treehouse guys!  Don't forget to wear tinfoil to protect yourselves from the media.

[Guardian G.I.]

According to Russian liberal news channel RBC citing Ukrainian media, the Ukrainian government have refused Russia's offers to hold further diplomatic negotiations on maintaining the Minsk ceasefire.

There's only one way it will end, and it won't be pretty.

[miljan]

Lets say it simply.

Okay let's say it simply.  There is the obvious truth.  Some people believe conspiracy theories and like all conspiracy theories the burden of proof is put on the people who believe the obvious truth and the conspiracy theorists will move the goalposts and dismiss any proof.

Have fun living in your treehouse guys!  Don't forget to wear tinfoil to protect yourselves from the media.

Your obvious truth comes from medias that you listen to. If they lie, sugar coat it, than you will think their truth is the real truth.  The same with pro russian media. People that listen to it, will think that also.
Also about your comment of  conspiracy theories is extremely funny, because you are actually one that is making conspiracy theories saying russia has its military there. And that is what a lot of west medias do, and the only proof they have are pictures of trucks.

Have fun living in a tree house? Really dude? If you can not say anything than troll bait, dont  post at all. Go watch your TV and believe whatever they say is the obvious truth, and quote wiki for proof lol.

[mainiac]

Protip: if your strongest refutation could be used without alteration to argue against literally any factual statement about any event in history you haven't made an argument at all.

[Helgoland]

Okay, how 'bout this: No links anyone posts here will be universally recognized as reliable - there's always the possibilities of lies, fakes, etc. So why don't we stop trying to proove events in the real world and instead start arguing about interests? That should be less vitriolic - and more interesting to boot.
The question I've been pondering for the last months: What does Russia want out of Ukraine? Crimea I can (somewhat) understand, but a rotten Soviet industrial area ruined by war?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

As one friend of mine joked: "Soon Ukraine and Russia will wage war were looser will have to annex Donbass"

Area with high population density, outdated industry, huge amount of retired people and coal mines that lived on governmental subsidies, billions worth damage to infrastructure.   mainly uneducated workforce (Most of educated workforce migrated away) and armed gangs that will require subduing

I don't know about Russian economy, but Ukrainian economy can't handle that.

[Sergarr]

As one friend of mine joked: "Soon Ukraine and Russia will wage war were looser will have to annex Donbass"

Area with high population density, outdated industry, huge amount of retired people and coal mines that lived on governmental subsidies, billions worth damage to infrastructure.   mainly uneducated workforce (Most of educated workforce migrated away) and armed gangs that will require subduing

I don't know about Russian economy, but Ukrainian economy can't handle that.

It's interesting how just half a year of war can make people start consider what was a part of their territory as something utterly foreign. Really shows how deep the split of Ukraine goes.

To knit tie:  Colonel Cassad all but admitted that regular Russian army has helped the rebels directly in the end of August.

You can't simultaneously promote him as a valid information source while simultaneously refuting one of the main points he said in the recent months.

[Helgoland]

The word 'doublethink' may be one of the greatest contributions Orwell has made to the English language

[Knit tie]

Mainiac, please refrain from insulting my and miljan's intelligence. We may not agree with your opinion, but that doesn't mean that we are inferior to you or deserving of open derision or mockery. And miljan, you are "good" as well - replying to an insult with an insult is just childish.

But moving on, I would very much appreciate if somebody would give me a link to an article about those Russian soldiers who allegedly went into Ukraine and got awarded for their trouble.

The question I've been pondering for the last months: What does Russia want out of Ukraine? Crimea I can (somewhat) understand, but a rotten Soviet industrial area ruined by war?

I think that Putin only wanted Crimea and nothing else. But, brilliant opportunist that he is, when the situation in Donbass deteriorated, he decided to take advantage of that in order to say "fuck you" to the West. But speaking of Soviet-era industrial areas, Donbass is not that bad of a place economically speaking. Certainly better than the majority of the western Ukraine.

To knit tie:  Colonel Cassad all but admitted that regular Russian army has helped the rebels directly in the end of August.

May I ask for a link?

[Sergarr]

Mainiac, please refrain from insulting my and miljan's intelligence. We may not agree with your opinion, but that doesn't mean that we are inferior to you or deserving of open derision or mockery. And miljan, you are "good" as well - replying to an insult with an insult is just childish.

But moving on, I would very much appreciate if somebody would give me a link to an article about those Russian soldiers who allegedly went into Ukraine and got awarded for their trouble.

The question I've been pondering for the last months: What does Russia want out of Ukraine? Crimea I can (somewhat) understand, but a rotten Soviet industrial area ruined by war?

I think that Putin only wanted Crimea and nothing else. But, brilliant opportunist that he is, when the situation in Donbass deteriorated, he decided to take advantage of that in order to say "fuck you" to the West. But speaking of Soviet-era industrial areas, Donbass is not that bad of a place economically speaking. Certainly better than the majority of the western Ukraine.

To knit tie:  Colonel Cassad all but admitted that regular Russian army has helped the rebels directly in the end of August.

May I ask for a link?

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1854320.html?thread=251211632

and

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1751820.html

[Ukrainian Ranger]

From the article:

For example, the share of the Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk regions of total Ukrainian exports  is 35%

It is true. But Dnipropetrovsk is fully Ukrainian, Mariupol, Donetsk region center of steelwork industry is Ukrainian, too. Let's not forget that Russian bandits controlled area is not that large. Something like 3% of territory of Ukraine.

whilst the 7 most western regions (some of which have a serious historical bonus), make up for just 1/14 of Ukrainian exports

What historical bonus? Also Western Regions bring quite a lot of hard currency from Ukrainian working in EU and spending salary home. Also, while Ukrainian tourism is very modest, Western Regions get more currency that way, too
Note that comparing GDP would be much more logical than comparing exports. Some regions are more suited for local market

Regionally speaking, the highest number of people living below the poverty line can be found in the north-western and south-central regions (in the Lvov region, 30% of the people live around the poverty line).

No link to prove that... I wonder why?

The title of the map is “Salaries per region in US Dollars (8,5 Hryvnia is 1 Dollar), 2013″.

Red regions are regions with a higher than average salary (381 dollar), blue – lower.

Neat map.
Problems are:
1) Average salary says nothing about income equality.
2) Salaries of Ukrainians working abroad are not included.
3) Salary can be not the only source of income
4) Official and real salary are different in many cases

The difference in gross regional product is striking. For example, when one compares the GRP of the Chernivtsi Region, a region dominated by the opposition (where protesters seized the regional administration building) with the “calm” regions in the east then: the GRP of the Dnipropetrovsk region is 3.17 times higher, in Donetsk 2.65 times, in Zaporizhia 2.6 times, in Kharkov 2.16 times and in Odessa 2 times.

LOL. Maybe it is because Chernivtsy region has roughly 0.9 million population, while Dnipropetrovsk has ~3.5 millions inhabitants and pre war Donetsk had ~4.2 millions ?
You see, They say that Chernivtsy GRP per capita is higher than eastern regions.

[Darvi]

I really wish people could talk in these threads without resorting to passive-aggression.

[Helgoland]

The question I've been pondering for the last months: What does Russia want out of Ukraine? Crimea I can (somewhat) understand, but a rotten Soviet industrial area ruined by war?

I think that Putin only wanted Crimea and nothing else. But, brilliant opportunist that he is, when the situation in Donbass deteriorated, he decided to take advantage of that in order to say "fuck you" to the West. But speaking of Soviet-era industrial areas, Donbass is not that bad of a place economically speaking. Certainly better than the majority of the western Ukraine.

I'll trust that these statistics are correct, but a couple of things come to mind:

1) These regions have been wrecked by the war, destroying much of the infrastructure that gave the region its comparative wealth.
2) That article takes exports as a measure of economic well-being; but the economies of the West and East differ greatly in their degree of export orientation.
3) The industries in the East are not competitive on the international market and always had to be subsidized - by the rest of Ukraine! These statistics might look very different once we take out the effect of those subsidies.
4) Even if gaining the Donbass is a net plus for Russia, is the economical advantage big enough to justify the war's direct and indirect costs?

Partially ninja'd by UR.

[mainiac]

Mainiac, please refrain from insulting my and miljan's intelligence. We may not agree with your opinion, but that doesn't mean that we are inferior to you or deserving of open derision or mockery. And miljan, you are "good" as well - replying to an insult with an insult is just childish.

If you dont want to be accused of believing conspiracy theories then stop saying things that implies a conspiracy by every major government and media outlet in the world outside of Russia.