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Who would've you voted for during the Ukrainian presidental elections?

Petro Poroshenko
- 5 (29.4%)
Yulia Tymoshenko
- 2 (11.8%)
Oleg Lyashko
- 2 (11.8%)
Anatoly Hrytsenko
- 2 (11.8%)
Serhiy Tihipko
- 0 (0%)
Mykhailo Dobkin
- 0 (0%)
Other
- 6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17


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Author Topic: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country  (Read 75287 times)

mainiac

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #735 on: December 04, 2014, 12:13:30 pm »

The west has never had a campaign of "de-Cold-War-propagandisation", like the USSR had in the 90s, and many people there still believe many myths and exagerrations, such as, for example, that Stalin's repressions killed more than 10 million people, while the official top-secred intra-NKVD documents put this number at 0.8 million executed and 1.1 million dead in Gulags. Not good by any means, but not the wild tales of Hitler=Stalin either.

Why do you assume that a secret report is an honest report?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 12:15:07 pm by mainiac »
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Sergarr

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #736 on: December 04, 2014, 12:32:13 pm »

There are about, probably over, 400,000 well served USSR tourists at and near the Eastern border. I don't think theres need for any "de-propagandandisation", as there was never any need for negative propaganda - Soviets managed that quite well all by themselves just like Russia is currently. Quite the opposite, a lot of pro-USSR propaganda was needed over the decades to rebuild the business ties and to get more support for the governments' attempts to balance between the two sides of the Cold War.

Btw, did you people read that speech of Putin's today?
Very weak. I expected more.

He still expect to win while staying "in the white". This is impossible, but he (or his speech-writer) doesn't seem to realize that.

Feels like the government has burned through all it's bravery in April/May while reclaiming Crimea.
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Knit tie

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #737 on: December 04, 2014, 12:44:59 pm »

There are about, probably over, 400,000 well served USSR tourists at and near the Eastern border. I don't think theres need for any "de-propagandandisation", as there was never any need for negative propaganda - Soviets managed that quite well all by themselves just like Russia is currently. Quite the opposite, a lot of pro-USSR propaganda was needed over the decades to rebuild the business ties and to get more support for the governments' attempts to balance between the two sides of the Cold War.

Btw, did you people read that speech of Putin's today?
So, basically you are saying that everything bad that was said about the USSR by the other power bloc's countries - USA, England, Italy, France - I am not talking about exclusively Finland - is true?
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Helgoland

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #738 on: December 04, 2014, 01:01:13 pm »

Everything that stuck, Knit. We had our share of propaganda too - Radio Free Europe, I think, is the prime example - but nobody paid attention to that stuff. But the stories of economic hardship, of waste, of repression, of the various purges?
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smjjames

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #739 on: December 04, 2014, 01:23:52 pm »

Btw, did you people read that speech of Putin's today?

No, is that the one where he claimed that Russia has the same kind of ties to Crimea as the abrahamic religions do to the temple mount and Jerusalem?
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Erkki

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #740 on: December 04, 2014, 01:27:44 pm »

There are about, probably over, 400,000 well served USSR tourists at and near the Eastern border. I don't think theres need for any "de-propagandandisation", as there was never any need for negative propaganda - Soviets managed that quite well all by themselves just like Russia is currently. Quite the opposite, a lot of pro-USSR propaganda was needed over the decades to rebuild the business ties and to get more support for the governments' attempts to balance between the two sides of the Cold War.

Btw, did you people read that speech of Putin's today?
So, basically you are saying that everything bad that was said about the USSR by the other power bloc's countries - USA, England, Italy, France - I am not talking about exclusively Finland - is true?

Of course not, and that is not what I said. But unlike what was necessary with the NATO or European nations, there were real efforts to keeping the relations better than they would have otherwise been. Did you know that even a couple of Hollywood movies were banned as late as 1980s for some time because letting them to be shown in theaters was thought to provoke negative reactions from the USSR? Also hundreds of books after the war. Banned radio stations and newspapers deemed too anti-Soviet. None of those measures to keep relations "friendly" worked much in the end because USSR, just like Russia today, simply does not treat its neighbors as equals. Kekkonen's vodka-enhanced sauna evenings with the Soviet leaders worked great, though. But I'm sure that you are familiar with the term "Finlandization", and it seems to be raising its ugly head once again after a good two decades or so.

Btw, did you people read that speech of Putin's today?
No, is that the one where he claimed that Russia has the same kind of ties to Crimea as the abrahamic religions do to the temple mount and Jerusalem?

Yeah, that was the craziest part of it. He first talked some about history and nationalism which sounded much better rationalized.
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smjjames

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #741 on: December 04, 2014, 01:41:04 pm »

Yeah, Moscow has a ton more historical significance than Crimea if described that way. Aside from the obvious strategic importance, I don't see a whole lot of historical connection. The only historical connections that I know are the fact that a couple wars were fought over it (at least one anyway) and that the Russian Empire colonized it.
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Sheb

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #742 on: December 04, 2014, 01:49:42 pm »

Pretty much every Soviets used to go to Crimea for their yearly holidays, so I guess it's a lot of good memories for a lot of people.
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Descan

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #743 on: December 04, 2014, 02:02:52 pm »

That's the best I got for an explanation, describing it as a "pilgrimage" site. Though, uh, I don't think "going to Crimea for a vacation" and "worshiping your God at the most holiest of sites" is... quite the same level?
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #744 on: December 04, 2014, 02:05:58 pm »

Pretty much every Soviets used to go to Crimea for their yearly holidays, so I guess it's a lot of good memories for a lot of people.
Crimea wasn't the only holiday destination in the Union - people also used to visit the Baltic states, the Black Sea beaches of Krasnodar Krai (Sochi, Tuapse, etc.) and the resort towns of Abkhazia (Gagra, Pitsunda, etc.).
My grandparents visited Abkhazia several times - from what they told me, it was a really beautiful place. Alas, during the war with Georgia in the early 1990s the Abkhazian resorts were devastated by fierce fighting.
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Helgoland

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #745 on: December 04, 2014, 02:07:00 pm »

That's the best I got for an explanation, describing it as a "pilgrimage" site. Though, uh, I don't think "going to Crimea for a vacation" and "worshiping your God at the most holiest of sites" is... quite the same level?
After all, Germany doesn't want to annex Mallorca. Not that we'd complain if Merkel did though - the more I think about it, the more the analogy fits...
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Darvi

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #746 on: December 04, 2014, 02:10:48 pm »

Isn't Malle a German exclave already, though?
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Helgoland

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #747 on: December 04, 2014, 02:14:32 pm »

That's why it works!

- Majority of people belongs to ethnic group of the agressor: Check
- Felt legitimation: See Darvi's post, check
- Majority support at home (disregarding that we're kinda allied with Spain): Check
- Local self-defense units: Could be arranged, check
- No land connection: Check
- Vital to national interests: How else will we keep the proles underr control? Check
- ...
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I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Knit tie

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #748 on: December 04, 2014, 02:16:49 pm »

Everything that stuck, Knit. We had our share of propaganda too - Radio Free Europe, I think, is the prime example - but nobody paid attention to that stuff. But the stories of economic hardship, of waste, of repression, of the various purges?
I'm sorry, Helgo, but I would never say that western - British, in my case, and I admit I cannot speak for the other peoples with the same certainty - believe a lot of lies about the USSR if I didn't bear witness to it myself, many times over, during my stay in Scotland. Let me say first that I am not talking about the works of serious historians here, or about the opinions of well-researched people, but rather about the mass culture and the popular image of the USSR, the one that the majority of people around here, in the UK, have.

The overall image of everything Soviet in the public mind here is very simplistic and tendentious, with every narrative revolving around "evil communists" and never straying far from this path, and as a consequence many things about the former eastern superstate are quite often simply ignored, and even more are misinterpreted and exagerrated. The Soviet Union had much more to it than Stalin's repressions and purges, and the retrograde stagnation of the late USSR sharply contrasted with the progressiveness, despite many hardships, of the early USSR - one of the examples of that is "Likbez", or "liquidation of illiteracy", a highly successful social program that was responsible for giving the absolute majority of then-medieval-level Tsarist peasants primary education and sharply reducing the levels of said illiteracy in the entire USSR to almost zero. When talking about the pre-WW2 USSR, to illustrate what I am talking about, most British pundits focus on the famine of 1032-33, which is all fine and well, but then they tend to repeatedly state that such famines, and repressions as well, were unique to the USSR and that the Russian Empire was a halcyon time of glory and prosperity, which is wrong, as the Emperors were ruthless autocrats who run extensive repressive apparati to quell the uprisings of, for example, hungry Ukrainian peasants, who were enraged by the fact that famine hit their mismanaged, underdeveloped, primitively-tilled lands, on average, every generation. Said pundits also fail to mention that the "unanimously loathed" collectivisation was readily accepted, and benefited to no small degree, by about one third of the USSR's peasants, the ones that were dirt-poor in the Imperial era - most of the problems with it came from when it reached already prosperous territories, where most people were well-to-do farmers extremely unwilling to hand over their hard-earned posessions to the state. Likewise, the USSR gave equal constitutional rights to women, including the ability to vote, much earlier than the USA did, and the Soviet social wellfare system was, overall, excellent, with the current Russian one worse in almost all regards. And the enemies of the Communist state were not always angels either - while the deportation of Crimean Tatars to the Central Asia, for example, was a thoroughly excessive and condemnable measure, it wasn't unprovoked: in the days of Axis occupation of the Crimea, the Tatars, as a people, actively collaborated with the Nazi forces and happily conducted many pogroms and ethnic cleansings of non-Tatars for them, with many Russian and other Slavic villages getting the Lidice treatment.

Now, this is not to say that all the bad things about the USSR are false - they aren't - and shouldn't be mentioned - they should. I am in no way trying to be a repression, stagnation, totlitarism or deportation apologist here, those happenings are getting well-deserved condemnation nowadays and I have no problems with that. But basing every USSR narrative around them, or, more often, around the oversimplified and exagerrated version of them is, I believe, erroneous and unfair. After all, when people talk about the days of the British Empire, they rarely focus exclusively on its checkered colonial past and the more questionable sides of the its Victorian period, preferring instead to charge their words with neither strong praise nor indignant condemnation, and I do believe that all former empires, USSR included, deserve the same treatment.

PSEUDOEDIT: holy crap so many ninjas.

@Erkki: I am not arguing about how much anti-Soviet or pro-Soviet propaganda was there in Finland, I am talking about the western, Anglo-American, public image of the Soviet union, the set of beliefs that is treated as intuitively obvious by the unitnitiated people.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 02:23:54 pm by Knit tie »
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Ukrainian Crisis Discussion Thread №3: Love your Country
« Reply #749 on: December 04, 2014, 02:25:18 pm »

When talking about the pre-WW2 USSR, to illustrate what I am talking about, most British pundits focus on the famine of 1032-33...
The Kievan Rus was ruled by Soviet communists, then? I didn't know that. :P
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