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Petro Poroshenko

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Total Members Voted: 17

[LordSlowpoke]

are you going on about how it's an artificial state because here i'm being a cunt and blaming the soviets for a mess they only had a hand in creating

[smjjames]

I don't know if Jordan and Saudi Arabia are artificial states though, I mean, sure, they were kingdoms once, but do they have an unifying nationality like say, Egypt does?

[LordSlowpoke]

reply was to sergie, didn't see yours

wap forum bestest forum

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Crimea has “immense civilizational and sacred meaning -- just like the Temple Mount in Jerusalem for those who profess Islam and Judaism,” Putin said today in his annual speech to parliament. “Russia this year showed it can defend its compatriots. We did this thanks to you, citizens of Russia. We believe in ourselves.”

Putin confirmed for insane

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-04/putin-says-crimea-is-russia-s-temple-mount-sacred-for-country.html

[Guardian G.I.]

now that's just

the poster child of poland's fuckedness was warsaw, check out some pictures of it at your leisure - prewar, midwar, directly postwar, 60s - and tell me it was better than iraq after americans came around

no seriously u wot m8

A 1950 Polish brochure (in Russian) detailing the damage to the city centre and rebuilding efforts.

Spoiler: Warszawa, 1950s (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Warszawa, 1960s (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Warszawa, 1970s (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Warszawa, 1980s (click to show/hide)

[Sheb]

Seriously Sergarr, wut? Have you forgotten about Katyn? About the millions of Poles expelled from their land that was incorporated into Ukraine and Belarus?

Sure, in the end Poland did better, but that's because it didn't degenerate into sectarian bloodshed, not because of the occupation.

[Sergarr]

Katyn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

Nazis were still worse.

Also, Soviet Union has constructed roads, schools, other things. Americans just bring misery and death everywhere they invade.

[Sheb]

1) Yeah, the Nazis were worse. But honestly, if your argument is "We're not as bad as the Nazis", you have a problem. Especially since the USSR helped the Nazis invade Poland in the first place.

2) The US build plenty of road and school too. If we look at the post-45 occupations, the US were certainly better than the Russians: they did not strip factories for "war reparation" (Apparently they took war reparation from the Poles too), they did not rape every women in their way, they did not install brutally repressive regime (the UK did in Greece though).

If we look at more recent stuff, the truth is that the US got involved in a lot more wars than the USSR. But looking at both countries occupations of Afghanistan for example, one can hardly say the USSR did a better job than the Americans.

[Sergarr]

Except that it totally did, seeing as during Soviet stay in Afghanistan there was a massive effort by West to prop up rebels with weapon and training centers in Pakistan.

Modern USA should have it easier and thus should be able to do more, yet they don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan#Soviet_period_.281979.E2.80.931989.29

Just look at that. Soviet troops in = low drug producing levels.

American troops in = holy shit high drug producing levels.

It's almost like if they don't really want to stop them doing that!

[Knit tie]

Seeing how we are discussing Nazis, should I lock the thread for a day to prevent inflammation?

[Helgoland]

Except that it totally did, seeing as during Soviet stay in Afghanistan there was a massive effort by West to prop up rebels with weapon and training centers in Pakistan.

And North Vietnam was not supported by the USSR, no siree...
And the drug production spike after 2001 is not the American's fault: Opium keeps rather well, so it can be stockpiled for a long time. The pre-2001 low was the result of deliberate market manipulation; after 2001 they started selling off the opium to finance their war.

Also, drug production levels don't correlate with living standards. Look at the Netherlands vs., let's say, Spain.


Knit: No, leave it open - you yourself have been discussing Nazis the whole time. Different Nazis, I know...

[Knit tie]

I think I really should lock the thread for a bit.

Sergarr, тебе выговор за неспортивное поведение.

[ragnar119]

It went back to who is worse again, USA or Russia (USSR).

Pro west defending USA actions saying it was not as bad under USSR, the same other way around. Great.

Can we go back to ukraine?

[Knit tie]

To be fair to Sergarr, though, I'll try to explain where the current anti-USSR mentality in the world comes from:

The west has never had a campaign of "de-Cold-War-propagandisation", like the USSR had in the 90s, and many people there still believe many myths and exagerrations, such as, for example, that Stalin's repressions killed more than 10 million people, while the official top-secred intra-NKVD documents put this number at 0.8 million executed and 1.1 million dead in Gulags. Not good by any means, but not the wild tales of Hitler=Stalin either.

As said above, Post-Soviet countries, Russia included, took a great deal of effort in the 90s to establish anti-Soviet mindsets and bash everything communist. The difference is that Belorussia, Ukraine and Russia itself had an absolutely horrible time right after democracy was introduced into them, leading to many people getting disillusioned with the western ideals just as much as they were disillusioned with the Soviet ones and developing the current brand of Slavic cynicism that we all know and love, while Poland and co. had a very clear transition from poor communism to better capitalism and as such, are strongly anti-Soviet to this day.

So here you have it, everybody hates the USSR.

Also, it is not fair to say that Stalin=Russia: he was a Georgian Ossetian and his government was mostly non-Russian, with many Poles, Ukrainians, Belorussians and some Jews.

[Erkki]

There are about, probably over, 400,000 well served USSR tourists at and near the Eastern border. I don't think theres need for any "de-propagandandisation", as there was never any need for negative propaganda - Soviets managed that quite well all by themselves just like Russia is currently. Quite the opposite, a lot of pro-USSR propaganda was needed over the decades to rebuild the business ties and to get more support for the governments' attempts to balance between the two sides of the Cold War.

Btw, did you people read that speech of Putin's today?