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[SquatchHammer]

It's a world simulator. So with that, there really should'nt be a need for a "final boss". Whatever the player feels the final goal of their save would be the end game, not some arbitrary final boss.

[GavJ]

I agree, there is no NEED for any boss, final or otherwise. That would be why I mentioned options #1 and #3 (removing it or making it not obviously intended as a boss like it is now, respectively) if you don't think there should be a boss.

[StagnantSoul]

Your fort doesn't just end the moment you beat hell. I beat hell, and still went for a few in game years after, still enjoying myself. In fact, a few goblin sieges caused more casualties and took longer to beat, because half of these goblins didn't fall to bone bolts in one hit. I find the easiness of hell is partially from it's randomization. If they were all at least flesh and blood, it'd be much harder to beat hell. I remember once, four ballistae in five or so volleys killed maybe a third of hell, then I released cages of animals, then sent in the military. In five minutes, I'd slaughtered hell, because two thirds of them were snow or salt. That goblin siege, with ogres and cave dragons and jabberers? That took twenty minutes and a lot of falling back, designating, pitting, releasing, fighting, shooting, and trapping. If hell was an actual civilization, I'd be quite happy with that.

[boddha]

Maybe hell shouldn't just became more interesting place, but also more difficult to be found. What's the fun of finding hell, If it's enough to have one dwarf with copper pickaxe and you can find it just by digging down. And despite making it harder to reach, there should be anything worth unleashing hordes of demons. There used to be masterwork candy sword, and now there're just empty slade walls, you cannot even dig through(well, cannot in legit way).

I've never stumbled upon hell by simply "digging down". I've only ever gotten it by flirting with adamantine deposits. Usually I hit magma sea and have to mine out a wide area to find a way through. So there's that risk/reward there.

[re4der]

Adamantine tubes are common, and easy to find. And you can dig it even with copper pickaxe. Still I think there's no challange.

[Urist McVoyager]

I support debossing them and making them a civ of their own. The final boss should be whatever thing we set for ourselves, not some arbitrary set of creatures buried down below the ground. Besides, I'm often a surface dweller. I have no reason to go down that far.

[pisskop]

I would ask what you would want to see in hell.  Ive tossed about some ideas for myself . . .

-More zlevels for it.  Only like 2 or 3 dedicated levels.
-A bit more labyrinthine.  Moreso than the caves, less than an actual labyrinth.
-Zombies, or otherwise subservient non-demons.  How they get there . . .
-Demons using fallen fortresses that sport a physical connection to hell as a portal to run amok on the countryside, and perhaps eventually even waging a wat against most life.


I dont think an actual demon civ would be good, considering how most of the time they arent a factor.  They are in a separate world, and Id support the illusion of an civ more than an actual organized civ.

And fortress mode demons would most likely get more interesting if they couldnt be stopped by a simple wall.  I like the idea that so much preparation is required to beat them legitimately, though.

[Urist McVoyager]

I would want more Z-levels dedicated to Hell. Maybe 5 or so. An honest ecosystem where everything's trying to kill you, with the Demons as an apex predator. It'd be more deadly than any cavern ecosystem. I still support a Demon Civ. The game's religions are usually polytheistic, and in those faiths the gods are often petty. Not every Demon cast to Hell would necessarily be an omnicidal maniac. But it should be a mixed bag. Even if you find a civ of Demons who weren't actually bad people, their Demonic nature should shine through. They could be good overall, but a risk to your fortress. I mean, how many folks have run into Demonic diplomats from friendly civs who had some kind of dangerous area effect attack that was triggered during a visit?

[Sergarr]

-More zlevels for it.  Only like 2 or 3 dedicated levels.
-A bit more labyrinthine.  Moreso than the caves, less than an actual labyrinth.
-Zombies, or otherwise subservient non-demons.  How they get there . . .
-Demons using fallen fortresses that sport a physical connection to hell as a portal to run amok on the countryside, and perhaps eventually even waging a wat against most life.

You've basically described the curious underground structure.

Zlevels? Check. Labyrinthine? Check. Zombies? Check.

[re4der]

I would ask what you would want to see in hell.

You know.. pits of sulfur, cauldrons with boiling oil, caged and chained creatures, hellfire, evil engravings, rivers of magma. Even special hellish animals and plants.

I also like the past ideas of hell in form rooms. It doesn't need to be open space. Or those two forms could be merged into one.

I agree, there is no NEED for any boss, final or otherwise

I think that point of hell is not being challange, like final bossfight, but something that you discover accidentaly, and leads you to immediate destruction. That's why it is hidden fun stuff, so new players could experience that suprise themselves. For now it doesn't even work like this, dues to demons being unable to break through single soap wall..

And fortress mode demons would most likely get more interesting if they couldnt be stopped by a simple wall.  I like the idea that so much preparation is required to beat them legitimately, though.

It's planned for goblins, to make them able to dig through soil to your fortress, along with numerous other sieges improvements. We will probably have to wait for unstoppable demons until toady starts working on that.

[pisskop]

-More zlevels for it.  Only like 2 or 3 dedicated levels.
-A bit more labyrinthine.  Moreso than the caves, less than an actual labyrinth.
-Zombies, or otherwise subservient non-demons.  How they get there . . .
-Demons using fallen fortresses that sport a physical connection to hell as a portal to run amok on the countryside, and perhaps eventually even waging a wat against most life.

You've basically described the curious underground structure.

Zlevels? Check. Labyrinthine? Check. Zombies? Check.

Yup.  Id take overzealous npc dwarves over that though.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It should be noted that the hell events are internally referred to with an "endgame" note. Dwarf Fortresses exist on a cycle, where they grow, eventually dig to greedily and too deep, and then are founded anew elsewhere. All of Toady's comments suggest that hell is meant to be the end of your game unless you've taken painstaking efforts to try and defeat it.

That said, I think the style of hell should go back to caged skinless elves. I'd also like the non-procedural demons back alongside the procedural ones, and multiple levels for hell.

[GavJ]

The thing about demons running amok from a breached, abandoned fortress should definitely be a thing.

You can just treat them mostly like FB's and titans, basically, add that many more to the world, consequences be what they may (some may show up back at your fortresses later, and largely wipe out many other sites)

[Sergarr]

The thing about demons running amok from a breached, abandoned fortress should definitely be a thing.

You can just treat them mostly like FB's and titans, basically, add that many more to the world, consequences be what they may (some may show up back at your fortresses later, and largely wipe out many other sites)

Don't forget that some of them would try to take over civilizations by pretending to be their gods.

And then you could have some kind of special event when 90% of all rulers in the world have been replaced by demons. Something sufficiently apocalyptic.

[StagnantSoul]

I don't want those pathetically weak demons back. Any well armed, untrained soldier could easily match a frog or tentacle demon. The procedurally generated ones need to be upgraded. Not downgraded.