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Author Topic: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?  (Read 8073 times)

MDFification

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2014, 12:06:48 am »

If I were designing something to make hell more interesting, the first thing I'd do would be to make huge winding ramp towers that lead to the hollow adamantine tubes from below... only obviously the demons only have two possible construction materials.

Demon bone blocks and Slade.
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re4der

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2014, 05:09:35 am »

Maybe hell shouldn't just became more interesting place, but also more difficult to be found. What's the fun of finding hell, If it's enough to have one dwarf with copper pickaxe and you can find it just by digging down. And despite making it harder to reach, there should be anything worth unleashing hordes of demons. There used to be masterwork candy sword, and now there're just empty slade walls, you cannot even dig through(well, cannot in legit way).
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2014, 12:25:40 pm »

It's really just for bragging right and a few extra wafers. Also, you could call it a test for your military.

I normally have 100+ moderately armed soldiers, with a bronze helm, mail shirt, and sword/axe/spear/copper hammer, followed by the rest being leather and a wooden shield . These guys engage hell first, and once they start doing poorly, the legendaries in full steel or adamantine charge in, supported by all the war animals in the fort. This is all it really takes to beat hell, and that makes it pretty easy. The legendaries and animals can probably handle themselves well enough.

If we made it so flesh was the minimum level of hell, it would be made harder, as salt, amber, ash, mist, fire, and such materials make it too easy. Flesh demons are handleable, wood demons are a slight challenge, stone and gems are somewhat hard to kill, weak metals are dangerous, iron and bronze are really strong, steel is a true demon. Cut out the weak materials, they make hell too easy. I had a cat walking by one hit a salt demon at one point.
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MDFification

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2014, 05:15:10 pm »

It's really just for bragging right and a few extra wafers. Also, you could call it a test for your military.

I normally have 100+ moderately armed soldiers, with a bronze helm, mail shirt, and sword/axe/spear/copper hammer, followed by the rest being leather and a wooden shield . These guys engage hell first, and once they start doing poorly, the legendaries in full steel or adamantine charge in, supported by all the war animals in the fort. This is all it really takes to beat hell, and that makes it pretty easy. The legendaries and animals can probably handle themselves well enough.

If we made it so flesh was the minimum level of hell, it would be made harder, as salt, amber, ash, mist, fire, and such materials make it too easy. Flesh demons are handleable, wood demons are a slight challenge, stone and gems are somewhat hard to kill, weak metals are dangerous, iron and bronze are really strong, steel is a true demon. Cut out the weak materials, they make hell too easy. I had a cat walking by one hit a salt demon at one point.

There's really no need to stagger your hellbreach like that - it just makes unnecessary casualties. You want to hit them with everything at once and overwhelm them all the quicker.
If they've got deadly syndromes, those are going to get just as many of your soldiers/animals regardless.
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re4der

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2014, 05:38:58 pm »

I would rather try to avoid zerg-rushing at group of exploding demons. It would make use of some tactics.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2014, 05:50:29 pm »

When it comes to hell or large sieges, I'm somewhat obsessed with zerg rushing.
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Places to jibber madly at each other, got it
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dwarf_reform

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2014, 06:18:21 pm »

It'd be really nice if every embark had a Hell-Castle with a nice demon caste system set up with commander/elite soldier types.. Maybe a queen/leader that can birth new demons every six months-one year (the leader could even send out a squad of demon-haulers who return corpses to the Hell-Castle for 'weaponizing'..) I haven't even mess around with HFS for over a year, honestly, so I'm not sure how the "wildlife" is down there, as far as lethality goes, but hopefully there are highly deadly respawning creatures down there to constantly endanger hell-settlements.. An assortment of potentially lethal flora and fauna would be good (web-style grabber/strangler plants, spore pods that explode into harmful dust or liquid, plants with projectile attacks).. Could even give random demons the ability to inject eggs into dwarves, or induce some form of temporary mind control onto mentally weak dwarves.. Maybe some kind of take-over mechanic where a demon can non-violently claim leadership of your site, and gain the ability to issue 'mandates' (of dwarven deaths, or started wars), and will occasionally eat or publicly torture dwarves, potentially even forcefully adopt dwarven children to raise as its own..

Lots of random things could be done to create overwhelming constant danger down there.. I also miss rising flood-water :( I keep quietly hoping that Toady'll devote a dev cycle to !!SCIENCE!! and danger sometime soon before heading abroad on the "frame the world!" mega-crusade :> A couple things would be: new traps, enabling all other liquids to have depth (for weaponization, moats of ichor, blood, and poison), catapult enhancements, enhanced leather and bone properties, ability to use corpses to damage the morale of the related race if applicable, plagues and spreading illness, droughts and famine.. Things like that.. Anyway, sad old Hell could use some fresh love, +1!
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GavJ

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2014, 02:41:17 am »

I don't personally think it is worth Toady's time to lovingly craft procedural hell decorations and ornaments that the vast majority of players will look at ONCE and then never go visit ever again. That's super wasteful.

If hell were to be upgraded at all, I would suggest nothing about the aesthetics, but revamping the AI to make it a significant challenge again:
1) Make them care less about artifact furniture and stuff. Seek out dwarves as priority #1, and only buildings if no dwarves are available. Even then, don't fixate.
2) Higher likelihood of high temperature bodies that destroy bridges and mechanisms of traps and so on.
3) Some rudimentary strategy based on special attack types. As simple as just a couple of rules about waves: "Any area effect syndromes go in first by themselves. Then a time delay after they die. Then remainder all go in at once with webs in the front of the pack. Anybody with a high temperature body gets bonus weighting for seeking out bridge tiles and wooden things." etc. Just check off down the list, not exactly Art of War level stuff here.
4) Possibly even the ability to directly smash bridges and constructions.
5) Some sort of resistance or immunity to cave ins. For example, teleporting to the top like magma does? Maybe not.
6) None of this bullshit anymore where demons have to be able to path to you to shoot fire or webs at you, but marksdwarves don't need to be able to path. Put them on equal footing, that bug makes it way too easy.

That kind of stuff takes 1/10th as long to code as procedural decorations, and has way more replay value.

Then spend other coding time on more important things, like armies and trading and whatever.


Edit: better yet, code one of the things in the above list at a time only for each of several releases, somewhat randomly, without ever telling anybody when you do.

And if I were Toady, I'd probably also be an asshole on top of that and one day just make it so that once you break into HFS, it secretly goes back and writes the demons into your last save file during ongoing gameplay. Meta demonic evil. =P
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 02:56:40 am by GavJ »
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

StagnantSoul

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2014, 09:03:01 am »

So you want hell to be impossible to beat? That's nice. Also, he already had a procedurally generated hell of sorts with decorations and buildings. Just, he kind of preferred blankness.
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Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum
I threw night creature blood into a night creature's heart and she pulled it out and bled to death.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Places to jibber madly at each other, got it
Quote from: NJW2000
If any of them are made of fire, throw stuff, run, and think non-flammable thoughts.

re4der

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2014, 09:46:59 am »

Personally I do not think making Hell look better would take more time then making invaders AI any better. If it was so easy, we would have smart goblin siege groups already, aswell as smart demons. What's more, Toady has already been working on it, so he could just copy-paste significant amount of code from past versions, making it require even less effort.
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GavJ

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2014, 11:15:08 am »

So you want hell to be impossible to beat? That's nice. Also, he already had a procedurally generated hell of sorts with decorations and buildings. Just, he kind of preferred blankness.
Those changes by no means make hell impossible. If you have a strong enough military, you can still just even bumrush them straight up by the above rules and win... if they have syndromes first, you lose one squad first, but could still win separately against the remainder. You could also still contain them by obsidian casting or cave ins that they can't break through, to deal with them in small groups or to save the syndromes for last instead by trapping them. And you can still obsidian cast the demons themselves to death. Etc. etc.

It's just that these things require a larger military than now, or complicated engineering. Which is appropriate, because you know... it's hell. And it feels dumb/boring for all the terrors of hell to get held back by a soap wall.

It also feels super dumb for these demons who are supposed to be intelligent and be able to run whole civilizations to be able to get killed by putting a shiny chair in a room and having them drool over it while you spike them to death for hours...

These are lame, copout strategies that don't fit the actual concept. When you breach hell, you need to be able to overcome hell or have meticulously planned, or they slaughter you. That is completely appropriate.

Quote
If it was so easy, we would have smart goblin siege groups already
Goblin AI is hugely more complicated. Try explaining an ideal goblin strategy in a one line sentence. Versus for demons, it's easy: "Syndrome demons go in alone first, then others follow."

What is that for goblins? "crossbows go in first, then others follow?" Other way around? No, neither of these would make any significant difference. Goblins would need intricate patterns and retreat rules and to remember traps and avoid them int he future and flank behind you and blah blah blah blah blah.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Miuramir

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2014, 01:42:50 pm »

If hell were to be upgraded at all, I would suggest nothing about the aesthetics, but revamping the AI to make it a significant challenge again:...
That kind of stuff takes 1/10th as long to code as procedural decorations, and has way more replay value.

I think you drastically underestimate the difficulty of what can be summarized as "dramatically improve the Army AI of Hell".  On the other hand, some of the stuff you're talking about will be coded in anyway as part of the Army Arc, such as better handling of the difference between melee and missile troops, better handling of building destroyers for sieges, etc.  Having a routine capable of recognizing the need to sending a squad of trolls forward to destroy a gate while under the cover of goblin archers is not fundamentally different from sending a group of steel demons forward to destroy a door while under the cover of fire demons. 

I've got a meta-objection to your construction, however.  You seem to be taking a very gamist approach to Hell, which I would characterize as "Hell is the final boss of a game, and should be a more interesting and complex fight". 

I think that continuing the developing procedural nature of DF will result in a more interesting and varied experience in the long run.  We're already starting to see the Spheres play a stronger role; of particular note is the deities who allow demons into the world to serve their ends (e.g. a deity of war assisting a demon to raise a spire because it will cause more fighting, etc.).  I think most demons should have a sphere, and they should act accordingly. 

To give a few examples:
* Demons of combat, war, etc. should have full advantage of the Army Arc improvements, and have a focus on destroying your military units and equipment.
* Demons of gluttony should try and sneak or fight their way to your food and booze stockpiles, and consume them; basically a super-powered version of CURIOUSBEAST_EATER and CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER. 
* Demons of filth should attempt to spread miasma and syndromes in your high-traffic areas and meeting zones.
* Demons of chaos should attempt to pull levers, open cages, toggle gears, and otherwise cause mayhem. 
* Demons of corruption should attempt to spread transformative syndromes into your water supplies and stockpiles (think vampire blood in the well, but more along the lines of "roll on the random mutation table, and loose significant happiness").
* Demons of hubris should path to your highest-ranked noble's area, and attempt to reduce its value... destroy statues and furniture, deface engravings, etc. 
* Demons of fire should want to see things burn... dwarves, doors, stockpiles full of bolts... path toward the largest nearby flammable thing that isn't yet burning, set it on fire, repeat. 

And so on.  The exact details don't matter; but the core idea is that you almost always get more interesting villains when they have a motive other than "be a punching bag for the hero(es)".  IMO a sphere-based goal system for the demons would generate the most interesting stories and re-playability.  For instance, one fort might end up facing primarily a brutally efficient military force, that ignores distractions and is bent on crushing your defenders, siege equipment, and traps; another might face mostly a whirlwind of chaotic and corruptive beings that burst past your military forces to pull levers, poison water supplies, consume your supplies, and turn your livestock and civilian dwarves into hideous abominations. 
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GavJ

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2014, 03:44:58 pm »

Those are all good ideas. No reaosn why they can't be implemented alongside a "this is a boss" concept with regard to boosting their abilities like smashing bridges, though (at least bridges, if not constructions)
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

NullForceOmega

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2014, 04:50:50 pm »

Gav, Toady already removed the 'hell is the final boss' element because it did not fit with his overall vision of Slaves to Armok II: Dwarf Fortress.  If you go back far enough in the releases, you will find old versions that quite literally just give you a 'game over' screen when you crack hell.  So no, the final boss approach is clearly out.
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GavJ

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Re: Isn't HFS getting less, and less fun?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2014, 05:37:35 pm »

Toady can wish whatever he wants, but in no realm of reality will the playerbase EVER interpret a big horde of sudden, super-powerful, violent demons at the bottom of the world as NOT a boss.

So he onlyhas three good options in my opinion:

1) Remove them entirely.

2) Leave them as bosses but make them not-crappy bosses. As in, not being completely predictably easy to deal with (or avoid) after seeing them once or twice, and also probably carrying a meaningful reward so people actually care.

3) If he truly wants them to not be perceived as bosses at all, then he needs to utterly rewrite them to the point where they act more like a civilization. Some demons might actually help you out with new knowledge or want to come live with you or make deals with you ("Supply me with X booze per year in sacrifice and I won't smite you") etc.

Just decorating their house doesn't address what is currently the main problem of "they are obviously still bosses in essence, yet indecisively nerfed bosses, to the point that they are almost totally irrelevant these days."
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.
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