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[Witty]

Yeah no. It's an exploit, not a feature.

It's a direct mechanic that is the sole, non-optional result of several different specifically implemented features in the game... E.g. you do not have the choice to NOT have a quantum stockpile for garbage dumps, or for minecart dumping.

I cannot fathom how you interpret that as a bug, unless you think Toady literally does not test major features he codes even once, since quantum stockpiling happens 100% of the time using these things and others.

Arguing realism is totally reasonable -- that's why I suggested the alternative of removing all quantum stockpiling instead. But arguing it's a bug is really grasping at straws, IMO. Toady knew full well he was implementing conflicting features. Okay, time saver, temporary thing, whatever. But they've been there forever now and are piling up and being more of a visible problem, and I'm merely suggesting now may be a good time to confront it.

I never said it was a bug. I said it was an exploit.

[GavJ]

Okay, but it's not an exploit either... Exploit implies unintentional broken-ness in the game. Often a coding bug, if not then a strategy or outcome that makes the game unintentionally easy or such.

There is a 0% chance that multiple features in the game all lead to quantum stockpiling, without Toady having intended that feature, coded it into multiple parts of the game, and seen and verified it occurring and its obvious consequences within the first 5 seconds of playtesting any of those releases.

Something merely making the game easier is not an exploit if it's obviously written in on purpose and has no other function, rational usage, or other reason for being there. Quantum stockpiling by those intentional features is no more of an "exploit" than using rock pots when you don't have wood for barrels.

[StagnantSoul]

Sorry, it's definitely an exploit. Toady probably overlooks it because he finds things such as rampant depression a worse case.

[GavJ]

Convincing counterpoint...

[4maskwolf]

I'm pretty sure GavJ has been the one to make at least half of the most controversial suggestions in recent memory...

I personally don't use quantum stockpiles: if I dump things, it's a temporary measure until I get it a proper stockpile. I don't have a problem with people who do, and I personally don't believe it's important enough for Toady to work on right now.

[Decidophobia]

Yeah, I suspect that these features put everything in the same tile because it would take more coding to change it, and that's not a priority. I don't know what the code looks like, of course, but it seems like all items dumped on a tile staying in that tile is simply the easiest way to do it. Maybe it'll be adjusted later, maybe not, but it's hardly a game-breaking issue.

[GavJ]

I'm not trying to be controversial. Notice that I suggested "make it all quantum stockpiles, or eliminate quantum stockpiles" Only suggesting conformity. It's only controversial if for some reason you think the game really is best off having specifically a mixture of some quantum stockpiles and some not (?).

Or if you think it's just not worth the coding time. Which is fine, it might not be. I dunno, depends on how neat and tidy that code is.

[4maskwolf]

I was just commenting on how your suggestions (and a lot of your topics in general) tend to get people riled up, whether it's for good reason or not.

[SixOfSpades]

I was just commenting on how your suggestions (and a lot of your topics in general) tend to get people riled up, whether it's for good reason or not.

Hey, my suggestions get people's dander up too, ya know! 


As for quantum stockpiles, there's a huge difference between "obviously written in on purpose" and "works ok in principle, sure it could be abused, but I don't have time to fix it yet." I think it's pretty clear that quantum stockpiling is an example of the latter case, as each method of creating one works just fine on a small scale--only when it's taken to absurd degrees does it become "wrong". Throwing one's trash onto a 1-tile dump is perfectly okay, on a household level--but extrapolate that to the collective waste of 200+ dwarves and you've got unrealistic. To fix that, Toady would have to code a check for how "full" a tile is, and I'm sure we can all forgive him for not having yet done so. It's only when players use this behavior to deliberately compress large amounts of big, heavy objects such as stones, logs, & metal bars that it becomes a genuine exploit, and to fix that, Toady would have to disallow objects like stones, logs, & bars from being placed in dump zones, or minecarts . . . and that would be even LESS realistic than the quantum stockpiles in the first place.

[GavJ]

^ Dude, all those items already have volumes on record and stored in game. You only need to:

if (tileFullness + nextItemVolume > maxTileSpace) {return false;} else {return true;}

No need for any special exceptions for logs or whatever. Logs already have much larger volumes than, say, blocks or rings. Hence you can fit 86 blocks or something in a minecart and only 5 logs.

But yes, that would be fair and reasonable. If a minecart holds 5 logs, maybe a whole tile holds 10 or something, then you need to get another stockpile tile. Simply make all stockpiles fill to capacity by default like this, and it's a very easy coding fix probably, and is realistic (more so than sprawling stockpiles OR quantum) and should make everybody happy, yes?

[Max™]

I pictured a post-fix world where toady made piled items respect the volume of their neighbors, and given how in depth various other facets of the game are, one could easily see things taking into account the mass and tensile strength/compressibility of said neighbors, so you unpause and all of your quantum stockpiles vomit everything into the nearest empty (or simply less-occupied) volumes... the floor to either side, the air, a steel bar in a wood wall, a stone boulder in a dorf skull.

Dear armok that sounds amazing, DO IT TOADY!

[SixOfSpades]

Also to be considered:
1) If tiles have a set volume, and containers have a (much smaller) set volume--why can't we stack more than 1 container per tile?
2) If total item volume per tile cannot be exceeded, I'm hoping that total creature volume per tile is checked next. I want to dump SO many goblins into a narrow pit that they start crowdsurfing for REAL, not just in my imagination.
3) But that will cause a headache when building multi-tile creatures, as each individual tile of the creature would have to state its own volume, and other creatures could only occupy the remainder of that specific tile. Of course, if that large creature can change its shape, the volume of the individual tiles could change as well, so that sounds like it could turn into a major headache.

[Adrian]

.. why can't we stack more than 1 container per tile?

Insufficient floor space. You try opening a chest when there's two more stacked on top of it.

[Reelya]

Quantum stockpiles add infinite space. It's actually an exploit which breaks one of the core game mechanics - the importance of managing space and stocks. This is the same as adding e.g. a reaction that makes wood for bins out of thin air or something - it's something for nothing. Which breaks the game balance. Bins and barrels are actually the intended method for improving space density.

So the upshot of the suggestion is cheating is too hard, so all the exploits should be directly coded into the core game to get rid of the annoyance of having to cheat. Cheating via exploits is a choice though. You're doing something that the game wasn't intended to support.

Item volume isn't fully implemented yet (though it might be inside bins, I'm not sure). Making a default quantum stockpile would just be a stop-gap measure until it is. Modelling spillage is the obvious solution to quantum stockpiles - you pile too much up and the pile collapses, spreading items to neighboring cells. Or it becomes completely impassable.

Once a single seed or sock stops taking up the same space as a statue or boulder, then the quantum issue would largely take care of itself - each tile could hold some amount of any type of item based on the bulk of that item. This can already be partially achieved with bins / barrels. A workable improvement could be to implement a "virtual bin" in each square (maybe 1/2 or 1/4 the capacity of a full bin). So each empty stockpile cell could hold a variable amount of items by reusing the container code for bins. That would get around the annoyance of one sock taking up the same space as a statue but still give a reason to make bins.

[cyberTripping]

Material duping isn't a bug, so let's cut out the useless middleman and have a mat duping reaction added to the forge.