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[GavJ]

EDIT: After further discussion, I don't think quantum stockpiles everywhere are best, nor pure classic stockpiles. Instead, a compromise is more realistic than either and better for gameplay than either, probably: using the existing volume data and the existing volume-packing algorithms for containers for tiles as well. Divide cubic centimeters by 10 or so to account for non-rectangular shaped objects and shelving issues, and then allow that many items in a tile.

So 60,000 cm^3 statues -- you can fit 10 of them in a 6,750,000 cm^3 tile using the 10x modifier for stacking and shape. Which seems totally reasonable. In other words, total tile capacity = ((volume of tile) / 10) -- then fill with up to that amount of objects based on their cm^3 values.

At first, it would be helpful even just to implement this for normal manual stockpiles and nothing else. I.e. just add a total volume parameter to the stockpile tiles, and chuck a couple lines of code to check agaisnt it when a dwarf is deciding whether that tile is available during haul pathing.

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There are like half a dozen ways to make quantum stockpiles. garbage dumps, short railroad routes dumping int a tile, drop zones from above, blah blah.

It's reached a point where these are never going to realistically be rooted out, and players would be pissed if they were. Nor are they game breaking. In fact, they are game saving in reducing lag and general tidiness, balancing the recent stone hauling slowness, etc. So why make us go through the tedium of annoying, brainless menu clicking over and over to get to what is an inevitable outcome? Just make it a plain designation already and drop the facade.

OR, if you feel strongly about it, then go actually stop the loopholes, and disallow ANY quantum stockpiling. If you drop items onto a tile with other items, they pile up into tiles above. If you try to dump a minecart into a tile with stuff in it, it simply fails to dump. Etc. I think this would make a worse game than the other option, but at least it would be consistent as well.

Having both at the same time though is just bad. Quantum stockpiles exist and are supported, yet for some unexplained reason, dwarves are too stupid to realize not to take up huge amounts of space manually for no logical reason? This makes no sense, is immersion breaking, and the system encourages bad gameplay practices of tiresome roundabout methods all the time.

Pick one or the other and commit, I say (preferably the quantum)

[SixOfSpades]

Pick one or the other and commit, I say.

Except that that would strongarm the players into a style that they might not want. As it exists, the game offers players the choice: Either let the dwarves neatly arrange just 1 rock per square meter, or spend a few clicks to have them cram infinity onto the head of a pin. I don't really see any reason to change having that option, let people play how they want.

[Sirbug]

I'd expect piles mechanic to be implemented. Like, pile too many items on one spot and you won't be able to get anything until you pull it apart. That seems fair.

Dumps are bumps, they are supposed to be the final end of item. Dumping a minecart is also supposed to sorted out. Stockpile is arranged and ready for use.

[StagnantSoul]

I vote for option two. Quantum stockpiling is a bug, it shouldn't be a feature, unless I can wear five hundred pieces of armor and woeld eighty weapons per hand.

[Decidophobia]

Since quantum stockpiling is a side effect that doesn't make any rational sense, I don't think it's unreasonable that it takes a few more clicks to set it up. Turning it into a feature would make the game less realistic, which is pretty much the opposite of the development so far.

[Larix]

There's an actual measure implemented to make one _kind_ of quantum-piling less workable: "stacking" in the air tile above a stationary cart. I just checked it now and a cart takes longer to settle into a tile already occupied by other carts. I found time consumption to be (getting the carts into the shaft by dumping track stop) seven steps plus two for every cart already sitting in the tile it wants to fall into. I.e. if there are 17 carts already in the stack tile, a new cart takes 41 steps to fall into it. It spends that time "hanging" in the air above the stack, and will create a new stack if another cart gets dumped into the tile before it leaves.

This already makes very "high" minecart stacks rather unpractical (200+ steps "hang time" over a hundred-cart stack) and suggests super-high stacks are not really intended to be so convenient. I wonder how to implement a similar "stack clutter" feature for on-floor stacks.

[Witty]

Yeah no. It's an exploit, not a feature. If players want to use it, they most certainly can. But let's not pretended that it's intended or anything.

Like Sirbug said, this'll be sorted out when piling mechanics are added. Whatever decade that is.

[Adrian]

IIRC every map square is 1,5x1,5x2 meters (=4,5*10⁶ cm³)

-If the content of a square exceeds the square's max volume, randomly redistribute the square's contents over itself and it's 8 neighbors.
-Pathfinding over squares should be penalized by the factor of how full a square is, multiplied by the "Restricted" pathfinding cost.
-Movement speed should be penalized as well.

I solved the quantum stockpile problem.

[pisskop]

Yeah no. It's an exploit, not a feature. If players want to use it, they most certainly can. But let's not pretended that it's intended or anything.

Like Sirbug said, this'll be sorted out when piling mechanics are added. Whatever decade that is.

+1.

[taptap]

I vote for option two. Quantum stockpiling is a bug, it shouldn't be a feature, unless I can wear five hundred pieces of armor and woeld eighty weapons per hand.

Quantum stockpiles aren't a bug, they are the armament to fight the shadowy main adversary in Dwarf Fortress, FPS vampires draining all your FPS away.

[StagnantSoul]

Nah, it's just a bug that I find heavily unnecessary, as the fps drain of items is incredibly tiny. I placed well over 100,000 logs every, only multiple tiles, in groups of 500, all around the map, followed by placing an anvil under each creature. I lost 5 fps. And this is a bad computer, it runs at roughly 12-17 after the first year. Unless you're refusing to use tens of thousands of items, not burning wood, or any sell anything, it's heavily unnecessary. Just designate a floor to be a massive stockpile, plus dedicated stockpile in important areas.

[taptap]

Nah, it's just a bug that I find heavily unnecessary, as the fps drain of items is incredibly tiny. I placed well over 100,000 logs every, only multiple tiles, in groups of 500, all around the map, followed by placing an anvil under each creature. I lost 5 fps. And this is a bad computer, it runs at roughly 12-17 after the first year. Unless you're refusing to use tens of thousands of items, not burning wood, or any sell anything, it's heavily unnecessary. Just designate a floor to be a massive stockpile, plus dedicated stockpile in important areas.

Seriously, you run at 12-17 after the first year, but don't consider fps drain an issue? *stunned*

[StagnantSoul]

I sell stone crafts and use tons of charcoal. This negates most of the wood and stone drain, and I sell anything I don't need. It just takes a bit of planning, and quantum stockpiles are rendered both useless and redundant.

[GavJ]

Yeah no. It's an exploit, not a feature.

It's a direct mechanic that is the sole, non-optional result of several different specifically implemented features in the game... E.g. you do not have the choice to NOT have a quantum stockpile for garbage dumps, or for minecart dumping.

I cannot fathom how you interpret that as a bug, unless you think Toady literally does not test major features he codes even once, since quantum stockpiling happens 100% of the time using these things and others.

Arguing realism is totally reasonable -- that's why I suggested the alternative of removing all quantum stockpiling instead. But arguing it's a bug is really grasping at straws, IMO. Toady knew full well he was implementing conflicting features. Okay, time saver, temporary thing, whatever. But they've been there forever now and are piling up and being more of a visible problem, and I'm merely suggesting now may be a good time to confront it.

[dwarf_reform]

I've never set up a quantum stockpile, mostly because dfhack's 'autodump' can teleport it all for me.. I'd say that the only way you can truly "cheat" or exploit DF is by representing a body of work to the community (presumably for fame) and lying about the method/s you used to achieve it..

For instance, right now I'm playing a vanilla 40.15 map with no bogeymen/demons/titans/werewolves/vamps/fb-caves, and I've also got a world with 1000 titans that can attack any time they want.. On one world I use the standard embark points, on the other 10,000.. A fort with quantum piles enabled would save a bit on storage space while leaving the rest of the game alone, similar to my peaceful world saving a bit on combat distractions while I simply build a fort..