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[Neonivek]

I am comparing the Long Bow which is the only martial ranged weapon that matters because Crossbows do not get additional attacks at higher levels.

Stop acting like the character is optimizing by picking a 50 gold bow.

1d8 is the standard damage of a fighter's attack. So that is what I use.

And a Fighter typically starts with a +3... So that is what I use.

And a fighter either gets a +2 to hit, damage, or AC... do I don't add that.

Versus a Wizard who gets 1d10 and that is it.

The thing is that wizards have other spells too. Fighters can't really compare to the raw damage output of spells like burning hands at low levels

We are ONLY comparing Cantrips versus ordinary attack.

Otherwise I'd have to bring up everything else a Fighter has over a wizard.

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But if it makes you guys so concerned... Fighters can get the exact same Cantrip at level 3.

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I also checked...

Fighters can Start with a Longbow... it is their standard attack.

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Don't get me wrong, I am pretty sure the Wizard out damages the Fighter, though I haven't really checked.

I just don't think the Wizard gives fighters a run for their money with cantrips... or any martial class really.

Though as I said... the Barbarian laughs at this discussion.

Heck Wizard doesn't even have the best cantrips.

[My Name is Immaterial]

Are ya'll forgetting Fighting Styles? The fact that Fighters have a much higher HD than Wizards? The fact that they will, 99% of the time, have a higher AC than their mage allies? Action Surge?
A first level Fighter's basic melee attack don't exist in a vacuum.

[scriver]

I don't see how that matters. As I said before, 1d10 damage would be a lot more balanced if the caster had to be closer to the target and thus in relative danger.

[kilakan]

Wizards are already in more than enough relative danger being a squishy wizard.  If you want to cancel out a firebolt mechanic's range than just use close quarters dungeons and encounters.  That or bring up the fact that firebolts light nearby material on fire as part of the ruleset.  That way the wizard might be a bit more nervous after his clothes caught fire on a bad miss or two.

[Neonivek]

Wizards are already in more than enough relative danger being a squishy wizard.  If you want to cancel out a firebolt mechanic's range than just use close quarters dungeons and encounters.  That or bring up the fact that firebolts light nearby material on fire as part of the ruleset.  That way the wizard might be a bit more nervous after his clothes caught fire on a bad miss or two.

Tight quarters? When was the last time you seen a 120 foot arena? That is a 24x24 square area... and that is just minimum, the actual size would have to be something much larger. A lot of characters don't even have vision that goes that far.

Though a Wizard pretty much needs to go into tight quarters early on anyhow because a lot of his good starting early spells require at least to be 15 feet from an enemy. This gets a little more relaxed later but for the most part it is long ranged.

So if a Wizard wants to 'play it safe' and fire his cantrips from long distance, he is going to be doing subpar damage compared to what he really could be doing. Well I say 'safe' because as a Wizard going far away from his armed backup to plink at enemies from afar is incredibly risky... unless they are with him, in which case the distance is intentional and gives the entire party some time to plink at the enemies before they close in.

Now Warlocks though knock this out of the park with 1d10+cha + super range... buuuuut they are supposed to be a sort quasi caster/fighter. So it doesn't exactly count.

[kilakan]

I was referring to what scriver as said, for your game all my characters are gonna develop claustrophobia at this rate ha!

[Neonivek]

I was referring to what scriver as said, for your game all my characters are gonna develop claustrophobia at this rate ha!

Look I have to build around the Cavalier... >_>

The game gives only TWO counters to the Cavalier... and one of them is bracing weapons which are terrible!

[kilakan]

We could also fight druids, rangers, or anyone else who can influence animals with magical ability.  Turn his horse against us works as well.  That and brace weapons also kinda counters me.

Alternatively larger pit traps work too.

[Neonivek]

We could also fight druids, rangers, or anyone else who can influence animals with magical ability.  Turn his horse against us works as well.  That and brace weapons also kinda counters me.

Alternatively larger pit traps work too.

Yep just put in some opponents just to counter one character

It would have to be dominate animal which is a 3rd circle druid/Shaman spell anyhow. Since Charm animal would do nothing since charge doesn't "attack".

Brace weapon's ultimate weakness is that they need to be braced. Which works excellently if the Party is fighting a cavalier, but not so much if a party is against an enemy... but I'll get creative.

Man this is getting kind of odd... The Cavalier is meant to be balanced specifically by countering it. Heck I already had to DM balance it from 3x damage.

Mind you dungeon environments tend to keep Cavaliers rather... balanced as well as ordinary enemies as long as I remember to hit the horse.

I need to ask that player to help me remember to hit the horse with AoEs because quite a few times the horse should have been at risk of dying from bomb rain.

[kilakan]

Also from an undead/foot soldiers point of view the horse is definitely a larger/closer/weaker target than the man riding it.  Andrea will probably be mad I am reccomending killing his mount but in real life combat that's what you tend to do.

[Rolan7]

In Pathfinder and 3.5e, Mounted Combat lets him potentially negate a hit on his mount by making a ride check against the attack roll.  Once per round though.  Dunno if he has that feat but sounds like he ought to.

[kilakan]

Polling interest but would anyone be interested in playing a roll20 table top game on any of Mon-Thurs starting 10AM est (-5 utc)  to 7:00pm and ending no later than 11:00pm EST (-5 utc)

The games I know how to run are as follows:
Pathfinder
DnD 5e
Wh40k (dark heresy, Rogue Trader, Only war)
Mongoose's Traveler
Exalted
Shadowrun
Paranoia

Will learn and gm other games by request though if there's enough interest.

[My Name is Immaterial]

WOTC has announced the next D&D 5e book: the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, coming November 3rd.
It includes:

• Immersive Adventuring: This campaign sourcebook provides players and Dungeon Masters material for creating vibrant fantasy stories along the Sword Coast.
• New Character Options: The book offers new subclass options, such as the Purple Dragon Knight and the Swashbuckler, for many of the classes presented in the Player’s Handbook, as well as new subraces and backgrounds specific to the Forgotten Realms.
• Adventure in the Forgotten Realms: Discover the current state of the Forgotten Realms and its deities after the Spellplague and the second Sundering. You’ll also get updated maps of this area of the Realms.
• Compatible with Rage of Demons storyline: Make characters for use with the Out of the Abyss adventure and fight back the influence of the demon lords in the Underdark below the Sword Coast.
• Insider Information: Learn the background behind locations, such as Luskan and Gracklstugh, featured in the upcoming digital RPG, Sword Coast Legends, from n-Space.

To be honest, the most interesting things are the subclasses and the subraces. Other than that, sounds kinda boring. To me, not worth the $40 they want to charge for it.

[scriver]

Wasn't the swashbuckler in one of those arcana uncovered articles? If they're making official releases out of their "work in progress" stuff, there might be more already "released" classes there too. Not that I particularly mind them gathering them up into one place, but you know. Might already have seen them elsewhere.

Part of me wants to say the Purple Dragon Knight was also previously released as part of some adventure campaign. But I'm not 100 on that.

[Rolan7]

From the DND thread:

The only thing more optimized than having Con as a caster stat would probably be Dex. At least at early levels. Thankfully, I don't know of any Dex based casters.

Sounds interesting conceptually, though. 
*nostalgia mode activate*
Like Firetop Mountain, the turn-based PHP or email game where each player-wizard would submit a gesture for each hand each round.  An example spell was
F S S D D
Wriggle-finger snap snap pointing-digit pointing-digit
Casts a fireball at a target!  Takes 5 turns, but does 5 damage and instakills a targeted ice elemental.  Woe betide you if there's an active ice storm, though!

Plus the formula for magic missile is S D (snap pointing-digit) which totally procs in turn 4 for 1 damage (thwarted by shields or counterspells, but useful for taking out summoned creatures).  Yep, gestures can work for multiple spells, only limit is you can only *complete* one spell per hand per turn.

There's also the c (clap) which requires both hands.  Good luck weaving that into your strategy!  Also, if you ever used the P (proffered palm) with both hands at once... even by accident... you officially surrendered and were ejected from the match.  Which was often a good idea, as dying had a hefty penalty (might have even been permadeath for your ranking).  A truly unique game, I'm amazed that the main site is still up and seems unchanged: http://www.gamerz.net/~fm/Main/

I also love the > gesture.  It's a dagger.  You shank the other wizard for 1pt of damage.  Weak but wonderful, and you can keep casting with the other hand.

Also, long shot and mostly off topic, but there was an old movie I saw long ago.  I think it was black and white.  Most wizards had to cast by speaking and waving their hands.  The more advanced wizards could cast through gestures alone.  I think the movie was about a wizard who managed to cast without either... through sheer thought.  Might have been a villain, not sure.  Wondering whether anyone remembers what the movie was called.