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[Neonivek]

Well, how can they function?

Demons function because they are endless armies controlled by extremely powerful demons strong enough to force the others in line. They don't need food, water, shelter, or anything and thus can be constantly blindly destructive... especially since they have their own realm. They need ALL of these elements to survive.

Devils function because they aren't allergic to good and are intelligent... when written competently. They are also kept in check because the fact that they aren't stupid means they come into direct conflict with stupid evil.

I am reminded a lot of this sort of depiction of Fallen Angels where they are indeed still outright evil... but they still have that sort of altruistic desire imbedded in them. So if you traveled deep into their territory you would see beautiful palaces where the Fallen Angel's closest friends and family living in luxury.

Those things? "I will stab you in the back if it serves my interest and I do not hide this fact. I am a champion of evil and even the very idea of doing good makes my blood churn"... "Yeah, clearly I trust you... ohh wait... no I forgot I have intelligence along with being evil".. "But I can help you"... "Only if it serves your interest, so I will know your always manipulating me and planning my downfall".

I am starting to understand why people say a Evil Villains best friend are good people.

Also Dungeons and dragons handles evil BAAAAAADLY! To the extent where they often just ignore alignment altogether. This is especially obvious with the "Chaotic Evil" Drow who have a non-chaotic Evil society... and are well organized... To the extent where I had to justify it myself by explaining that Drow live in a Cat Colony culture where they live close to eachother for protection and have little-no compulsion to kill eachother... and work together mostly at a whim but are otherwise cities of individuals rather then groups.

[Criptfeind]

Engaging in the basic level of interaction with society is not a act of good.
NOT being blindly destructive is not a act of good.
Being selfish does not preclude working within a society that enables one to exist if one is relying on that society. (Especially if that society is itself evil.)

Fuck, that code is easier to live by then the paladin one in some ways. A antipaladin could very easily live in a good society. A paladin can't live in a evil society.

Those things? "I will stab you in the back if it serves my interest and I do not hide this fact. I am a champion of evil and even the very idea of doing good makes my blood churn"... "Yeah, clearly I trust you... ohh wait... no I forgot I have intelligence along with being evil".. "But I can help you"... "Only if it serves your interest, so I will know your always manipulating me and planning my downfall".

I'm trying to make sense of this, but it mostly appears to be a paragraph of gibberish? I'll just mention that a antipaladin by that code can do whatever they feel they need to in any circumstance.

Also Dungeons and dragons handles evil BAAAAAADLY! To the extent where they often just ignore alignment altogether. This is especially obvious with the "Chaotic Evil" Drow who have a non-chaotic Evil society... and are well organized... To the extent where I had to justify it myself by explaining that Drow live in a Cat Colony culture where they live close to eachother for protection and have little-no compulsion to kill eachother... and work together mostly at a whim but are otherwise cities of individuals rather then groups.

I'm not really aware of that many depictions of drow society outside of the Drizzit books, so to be honest, that has fully colored my perception of them. Just to state in advance in case what I am thinking is wildly off.

But. A society where laws are meaningless and only enforced by traditions that the whims of the powerful. Where you kill to get ahead. Where the organization flows top down from the threat of force of the powerful (with a literal god being at the top of the threat of force pyramid?)

That seems appropriate for a chaotic evil society.

[Neonivek]

Evil society is not a society that asks you commit evil acts.

A good society requires you to be sociable.

Being sociable requires you to be altruistic.

Ever had someone ask you for something and you did it... openly and willingly? Well not Antipaladins.

[Criptfeind]

Being sociable requires you to be altruistic.

No it doesn't. Proof: Actual real world.

Ever had someone ask you for something and you did it... openly and willingly? Well not Antipaladins.

This is nether required to be part of society, and even if it was then antipaladins could do it.

[Neonivek]

Being sociable requires you to be altruistic.

No it doesn't. Proof: Actual real world.

Just, step back and analyze what you do on a daily basis.

[Criptfeind]

Okay. Done. A antipaladin could live all vital parts of my life by that code.

[Neonivek]

Okay. Done. A antipaladin could live all vital parts of my life by that code.

I am concerned with how much your life seems to coincide with "be the champion of evil" and bring the world to ruins and to never EVER willingly to a good act unless the act is actually to attempt to destroy the world.

[Criptfeind]

None of that is in the code you posted.

[Neonivek]

None of that is in the code you posted.

What did you think your dark goal was? To just be a greedy bastard?

Mind you if I wrote that I'd honestly exclude the "You must be greedy and selfish at all times" because that is probably a rather big detriment for someone you want to be your champion of evil. You want them to kind of work for you, not themselves.

None of that is in the code you posted.

I probably should rewatch that episode of Liars game again where the scientist says that human beings do acts of altruism because they are fundamentally selfish. Mind you whether or not that counts depends on interpretation.

[Criptfeind]

Unless one has the personal power to give the middle finger to all of society (in which case it's irrelevant because then they can just do that) a antipaladin will need to work within and LIVE within some type of society to do anything, much less further their goals. Thus they CAN do that if they want. In that code EVERYTHING can be sacrificed to the alter of pragmatism. That is a MUCH easier code to live by then the code the paladin lives by, where some ideals are always above reality. If that code was like the paladin code then it would be much less workable (although actually, still not totally unworkable probably.)

[Neonivek]

To admit though the Paladin code had to be reworked multiple times.

At its worst Paladins were ridiculously overzealous and punished by their deities (which is odd... given that... well... Zeus could have a Paladin... and why would a Paladin of Zeus be against promiscuous sex?) such as a Paladin falling because of an act someone in his party did. Making them almost stupidly pure more fitting for a NPC then a PC.

Then again Paladins were always kind of... odd in dungeons and dragons.

Not that it was much better in 3.5 (outside the reworks like the Paladin of Freedom)... Though from what I hear it has improved quite a bit in 5th ed.

[Criptfeind]

We satisfied with the blackguard and antipaladin then? Cool.

Neonivek, I wonder, what are your thoughts on 5th ed as a whole? I would be interested in hearing your viewpoint on it. If you have one. (Also sorry if you have already mentioned it on this thread, I've not really been watching this thread very closely.)

[Neonivek]

I haven't seen too much of 5th edition yet (and Yeah I am sorry... I spend too much time on negatives)

I don't mind that the game tries to REALLY focus on how powerful you can get in the game, characters often really gone off the rails.

The whole "You can either get a feat or an attribute increase" part is just flat out weird to me.

As well the streamlining goes both ways... I like that they added short rests, I dislike that they removed carrying weight.

I like that they did a LOT to fix rogues (Anyone can get trap removal, they just get it for free), as well as removing their horrid "most enemies are immune to rogues".

All in all my opinion is!!! I really gotta play it first... It feels entirely different from 3.5... it is almost like a marriage between 3.5 and 4e.

[timferius]

Also, it's sounding like peoples opinions might change quite a bit once the DMs guide is out. It's sounding like it will have a tonne of variant rules. In fact, I would be surprised if there isn't a carrying weigh variant in the DMs guide. For me, all in all, I'm loving the sound and look of 5e, especially as a newer DM. I'm looking forward to taking it out for a spin some time.

[Helgoland]

PTW, might contribute later. We have a fairly straight-laced GM though, so most attempts at wacky hijinks fail rather quickly. Well, there was that one time I hauled fourty kilos of cheese halfway across the continent and got a ridiculous amount of money for it, but that's about it.