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[wierd]

Interestingly the Necromancy spell school has life-wards and detection spells which are mostly useful *against* undead.  And "enervation", which is a Necromancy ray of negative energy, isn't evil.  A "Necromancer" doesn't have to create undead, they can be a powerful force against the undead.  Or just enjoy shooting people with negative energy via enervation, which isn't evil... although... a victim killed by enervation becomes a free-willed wight, based on the negative energy rules.

What always bothered me, was that table top games of this genre almost never include the obvious use of magic to understand, use, and control LIFE, as opposed to death, and death magic.

I agree with you that necromancy should not immediately be considered evil, nor should the undead.  There are any number of reasons why a re-animated corpse might not be evil, especially if any vestiges of the original personality are there, such as with a lich. (For instance, consider the Buddhist tradition of ancient times of creating "Living Buddhas". It seems plausible for a very powerful cleric to create and maintain a powerful warding or blessing spell for an imperiled people by willfully becoming an undead and enshrining himself in such a fashion.)

Likewise, the "vivomancy" I wish was more frequently present in tabletop games could be used for unspeakable purposes, and not just really powerful healing and resurrection spells.

[Sergius]

D&D in general use the "planar" excuse for most things related to alignment.

In this case "negative energy" is associated with evil (not equals evil, but it's always the good clerics that channel positive "cure" while evil clerics channel negative "inflict" wounds).

But usually the raising dead = evulz goes back to most of the horror movie and witch hunt stuff and devil worshipping stuff, etc, I suppose. But take Planescape, I don't think the Dustmen are evil, and you sell your corpse to be raised and stuff after death. So it all comes down to stereotypes: if playing the Hero vs Evil Necromancer villain trope.

Despite that, I think there was a kind of "deathless" anti-undead that were infused with positive energy and defaulted to good? But I don't think there were any unintelligent "deathless" and it was more a Class than a category of animate corpse. I suppose if it was extended to all things necromantic, unintelligent deathless would go around giving flowers to little girls and petting puppies while not being controlled, just like skeleton can do good while controlled but just go LOLMURDERKILLOKTHXBYE when left on its own.

[scriver]

As a general rule, I don't think undead/necromancy should be automatically be evil (a good example would be the use of necromancy by the Dunmer in TES, where being chosen to guard your family tomb is seen as a great honour, and the families highly venerates their ancestors, even if they are undead monstrosities), or Evil as in alignment-Evil. But in settings based on DnD and derivates, and it's mythology? Yeah, in those undead is definitely evil. See, undead aren't just some frankenstein-esque dead bodies brought back to life but by magic instead of lightning, they're walking scars in the natural world. They're not just "undead" as in an animated mass of dead matter, but actively "anti-life". Using such a thing "for good purposes" would be a Neutral act at best.

A case could be made for intelligent undead, I agree. But generally, I tend to think of it as the Negative Energy being an inherently corruptive force and that once you basically become a direct link to the Negative Energy plane, there won't be much left of your person that was like it was before. I've also thought (while I'm fairly expecting that this will lead to inconsistencies with the rest of the setting) that once you go undead, your soul is destroyed, and the Negative Energy sort of just seeps into the you-shaped hole in your "soul space", creating something that is very much like you, and definitely based on you, but also very different.

But yes, there are examples of individual exceptions where a person has been able to overcome the "corruption" of te Negative Energy and become a Good undead creature. Liches, at least. Probably vampires. And yeah, then there's the Baelnorn, the Good elven liches. I don't really like those at all, they reek of "special awesome Elven magic that enables us to do things you can't so we can be super special because elven magic!" and I don't think that is particularly interesting.

And lastly, there is the implication that one could potentially create the equivalent "Good" undead by using Positive Energy ( or perhaps Neutral by using both Positive and Negative energy and making sure the streams do not cross). I'm not sure this has been explored by any DnD setting in any particular way, unfortunately.

Fakedit: ninja'd by Sergius. Apparently it may have been explored?

[My Name is Immaterial]

In the Book of Exalted Deeds, there is a prestige class called Risen Martyr, which grants the Deathless type.

Deathless is a new creature type, describing creatures that have died but returned to a kind of spiritual life. They are similar in many ways to both living creatures and undead. However, while undead represent a mockery of life and a violation of the natural order of life and death, the deathless merely stave off the inevitability of death for a short time in order to accomplish a righteous purpose. While undead draw their power from the Negative Energy plane, the deathless are strongly tied to the Positive Energy plane, the birthplace of all souls. In fact, the deathless are little more than disincarnate souls, sometimes wrapped in material flesh, often incorporeal and hardly more substantial than a soul in its purest state.

[scrdest]

In other words, DnD tows the 'BUT MUH DEATH' line, therefore, by default, not-death is bad unless exceptions are specifically made.

If I ever DM'd a custom setting for DnD, I'd make a good (morally) Evil (negative energy) god - in other words a decent guy of a god that just happens to be tied to Negative Energy for Reasons (TM) - just to mess with preconceptions.

[Ogdibus]

What always bothered me, was that table top games of this genre almost never include the obvious use of magic to understand, use, and control LIFE, as opposed to death, and death magic.

Likewise, the "vivomancy" I wish was more frequently present in tabletop games could be used for unspeakable purposes, and not just really powerful healing and resurrection spells.

I was lucky enough to have played a game with "Life" magic, and actually explore it's use.  Most of it was just healing and buffs with some control type spells, but you could also do things like create temporary soulless beings and transfer souls, or turn people into monsters.  If you got spells from the divine tier, that humans can't actually cast, you could do things like make souls, a new genesis, or terraform.  It was also split between two schools, so it wan't even humanly possible to synergize the high level spells.  You can get around that being human issue, but it's risky.  I actually botched the first attempt, but managed not to kill myself.

[My Name is Immaterial]

In other words, DnD tows the 'BUT MUH DEATH' line, therefore, by default, not-death is bad unless exceptions are specifically made.

If I ever DM'd a custom setting for DnD, I'd make a good (morally) Evil (negative energy) god - in other words a decent guy of a god that just happens to be tied to Negative Energy for Reasons (TM) - just to mess with preconceptions.

Sounds a bit like Wee Jas.

[Tack]

GM dangled bait in front of our face and we took it.

Lich appears before us, hits us with a DC35 Mass Hold Person spell and then offers to fight us. If we win, we get his help, if we lose, it's gg.
Apparently he's making this one almost impossible to win, and has written a bunch of stuff in case we lose and become undead thralls.

I mean, that's cool. I'm glad we don't have a paladin. But still.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

I recall reading a greentext or something from /tg/ where a necromancer used the magic to communicate with his dead ancestors and past family members. No enslavement, just an old man who talks with his family beyond the grave. Can't find it.

Here's another relevant story I found to make up for it.

HERE
HERE IT IS AND YOU CAN ALL JUST BOW DOWN TO ME
WHEN YOU CAN'T FIND WHAT YOU WANT.
YOU FRIGGIN FIND IT.
*cough*

[Spehss _]

I recall reading a greentext or something from /tg/ where a necromancer used the magic to communicate with his dead ancestors and past family members. No enslavement, just an old man who talks with his family beyond the grave. Can't find it.

Here's another relevant story I found to make up for it.

HERE
HERE IT IS AND YOU CAN ALL JUST BOW DOWN TO ME
WHEN YOU CAN'T FIND WHAT YOU WANT.
YOU FRIGGIN FIND IT.
*cough*

OH HEY, THAT'S THE ONE. NICE FIND!

...WHY ARE WE YELLING?

[GiglameshDespair]

And then Execute/Dumbo and Spehss_ were the ghosts.

[Bohandas]

Despite that, I think there was a kind of "deathless" anti-undead that were infused with positive energy and defaulted to good? But I don't think there were any unintelligent "deathless" and it was more a Class than a category of animate corpse. I suppose if it was extended to all things necromantic, unintelligent deathless would go around giving flowers to little girls and petting puppies while not being controlled, just like skeleton can do good while controlled but just go LOLMURDERKILLOKTHXBYE when left on its own.

The Deathless are primarily an Eberron thingy.

Also, the rules never explicitly state what happens when unintelligent undead do when not controlled, whether they go all zombie apocalypse, or go dormant, or continue to follow the last order from when they were under control.

[Sergius]

Despite that, I think there was a kind of "deathless" anti-undead that were infused with positive energy and defaulted to good? But I don't think there were any unintelligent "deathless" and it was more a Class than a category of animate corpse. I suppose if it was extended to all things necromantic, unintelligent deathless would go around giving flowers to little girls and petting puppies while not being controlled, just like skeleton can do good while controlled but just go LOLMURDERKILLOKTHXBYE when left on its own.

The Deathless are primarily an Eberron thingy.

Also, the rules never explicitly state what happens when unintelligent undead do when not controlled, whether they go all zombie apocalypse, or go dormant, or continue to follow the last order from when they were under control.

Not sure on former editions, but 5th edition has a class that raises undead and controls them for a while, and can keep control of a maximum number per day, if he doesn't, they don't die or anything, just keep on going on their default behavior, which apparently is just shuffle their feet and attack everything on sight. Which I suppose is what evil dungeon keepers do when they populate their dungeons.

EDIT: I suppose "uncontrolled undead" would act as indicated by their monster entry, same as any random undead found in a dungeon.

[Bohandas]

Despite that, I think there was a kind of "deathless" anti-undead that were infused with positive energy and defaulted to good? But I don't think there were any unintelligent "deathless" and it was more a Class than a category of animate corpse. I suppose if it was extended to all things necromantic, unintelligent deathless would go around giving flowers to little girls and petting puppies while not being controlled, just like skeleton can do good while controlled but just go LOLMURDERKILLOKTHXBYE when left on its own.

The Deathless are primarily an Eberron thingy.

Also, the rules never explicitly state what happens when unintelligent undead do when not controlled, whether they go all zombie apocalypse, or go dormant, or continue to follow the last order from when they were under control.

Not sure on former editions, but 5th edition has a class that raises undead and controls them for a while, and can keep control of a maximum number per day, if he doesn't, they don't die or anything, just keep on going on their default behavior, which apparently is just shuffle their feet and attack everything on sight. Which I suppose is what evil dungeon keepers do when they populate their dungeons.

EDIT: I suppose "uncontrolled undead" would act as indicated by their monster entry, same as any random undead found in a dungeon.

Mindless undead don't really seem to have much in the way of described default behavior either; or rather the default behavior of zombies and skeletons seems to be beong controlled by the spellcaster who created them

[Sergius]

Yeah, noticed that after some searching. The only reason they attack you in dungeons it's because the DM wants it to, or because it's stated in the encounter if it's a module, but nowhere does it say "skeletons hate the living and will attack them on sight" apparently.

Even a setting book like Forgotten Realms doesn't seem to specify. There's a "Tome of Necromancy" thing out there with some options but I don't think it's anything official, just some random joe's post in a forum that was transcribed.

So I guess the official position is "whatever the table agrees they do".