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Author Topic: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России  (Read 257235 times)

Sergarr

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3090 on: February 01, 2015, 08:29:10 pm »

Do you know how much time and money these things take to build?

And besides, Sevastopol is valuable not only because it's a military naval base. It's also a great southern city - a Russian city through and through. We've just recovered what we've lost thanks to Yeltzin and his bandits.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:36:58 pm by Sergarr »
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Owlbread

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3091 on: February 01, 2015, 08:36:02 pm »

Not worth waging a war over. For the same money they could've built a new port with new facilities, and given their economy a boost as well, all without harming Russia's standing in the world.
E: What Frumple said, basically.

Am I really the only one who sees the Russian intervention in Ukraine and Crimea as the desperate actions of a fading power struggling to stay relevant in the modern world in the face of China, the EU and the USA, especially as it sees its past colonial territories and modern-day puppet states e.g. Yanukovych-era Ukraine drifting away to greener pastures? It's kind of sad in a way, or pathetic.

By turning Georgia and Ukraine into toilets, maybe that could act as a message to places like Kazakhstan should they consider breaking away from Russian hegemony. That's certainly the last thing Russia needs right now - a place with lots of native Russian speakers enjoying easy access to things like the EU or NATO. Considering how many Russo-Latvians I've seen in Scotland god knows how many Russo-Ukrainians would have ended up in Western Europe had Crimea and East Ukraine not been turned into toilets and had Ukraine smoothly moved towards full EU membership.

Even better - let's say Sergarr and Guardian G.I.'s fevered dreams/nightmares came true and Russia and its satellites went to war with the Fourth Reich of NATO. If there's Russians living in the tens of thousands in a NATO member state, surely that could potentially mean Russians shooting other Russians? Or otherwise putting their wellbeing at risk?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:41:40 pm by Owlbread »
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Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3092 on: February 01, 2015, 08:37:32 pm »

Do you know how much time and money these things take to build?
Couple of years, I guess. Ten, twenty tops. And the Sevastopol situation was awkward ever since Ukraine became independent - at least a small facility (which would be easily expandable) could've been built there much earlier.
Am I really the only one who sees the Russian intervention in Ukraine and Crimea as the desperate actions of a fading power struggling to stay relevant in the modern world in the face of China, the EU and the USA, especially as it sees its past colonial territories and modern-day puppet states e.g. Yanukovych-era Ukraine drifting away to greener pastures?
I agree in general, but it gets Knit mad and doesn't lead anywhere, so I usually stay quiet about it.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Darvi

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3093 on: February 01, 2015, 08:39:50 pm »

Am I really the only one who sees the Russian intervention in Ukraine and Crimea as the desperate actions of a fading power struggling to stay relevant in the modern world in the face of China, the EU and the USA, especially as it sees its past colonial territories and modern-day puppet states e.g. Yanukovych-era Ukraine drifting away to greener pastures?
I agree in general, but it gets Knit mad and doesn't lead anywhere, so I usually stay quiet about it.
Here, let me distract everybody with a relevant link.
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Sergarr

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3094 on: February 01, 2015, 08:44:43 pm »

Not worth waging a war over. For the same money they could've built a new port with new facilities, and given their economy a boost as well, all without harming Russia's standing in the world.
E: What Frumple said, basically.

Am I really the only one who sees the Russian intervention in Ukraine and Crimea as the desperate actions of a fading power struggling to stay relevant in the modern world in the face of China, the EU and the USA, especially as it sees its past colonial territories and modern-day puppet states e.g. Yanukovych-era Ukraine drifting away to greener pastures? It's kind of sad in a way, or pathetic.

By turning Georgia and Ukraine into toilets, maybe that could act as a message to places like Kazakhstan should they consider breaking away from Russian hegemony. That's certainly the last thing Russia needs right now - a place with lots of native Russian speakers enjoying easy access to things like the EU or NATO. Considering how many Russo-Latvians I've seen in Scotland god knows how many Russo-Ukrainians would have ended up in Western Europe had Crimea and East Ukraine not been turned into toilets and had Ukraine smoothly moved towards full EU membership
"Easy access to EU and NATO" leads to this:

This is not something I want to happen to my country. So get away from us.
And in regards to Ukraine, look at this:
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=uk&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fporoshenko%2Fstatus%2F515118331494678529&edit-text=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Ethnic_cleansing_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Galicia

You're literally trying to support the country the president of which glorifies the sadistic mass murderers that committed atrocities even Nazis were horrified of.

If this is what EU and NATO promotes, then there will be war.
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Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3095 on: February 01, 2015, 08:51:38 pm »

Not worth waging a war over. For the same money they could've built a new port with new facilities, and given their economy a boost as well, all without harming Russia's standing in the world.
E: What Frumple said, basically.

Am I really the only one who sees the Russian intervention in Ukraine and Crimea as the desperate actions of a fading power struggling to stay relevant in the modern world in the face of China, the EU and the USA, especially as it sees its past colonial territories and modern-day puppet states e.g. Yanukovych-era Ukraine drifting away to greener pastures? It's kind of sad in a way, or pathetic.

By turning Georgia and Ukraine into toilets, maybe that could act as a message to places like Kazakhstan should they consider breaking away from Russian hegemony. That's certainly the last thing Russia needs right now - a place with lots of native Russian speakers enjoying easy access to things like the EU or NATO. Considering how many Russo-Latvians I've seen in Scotland god knows how many Russo-Ukrainians would have ended up in Western Europe had Crimea and East Ukraine not been turned into toilets and had Ukraine smoothly moved towards full EU membership
"Easy access to EU and NATO" leads to this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This is not something I want to happen to my country. So get away from us.
And in regards to Ukraine, look at this:
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=uk&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fporoshenko%2Fstatus%2F515118331494678529&edit-text=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Ethnic_cleansing_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Galicia

You're literally trying to support the country the president of which glorifies the sadistic mass murderers that committed atrocities even Nazis were horrified of.

If this is what EU and NATO promotes, then there will be war.

Fixed that link. Are you saying you'd rather force young people to stay in a shitty country? They don't mograte because they don't like the smell in the air, you know. Plus nobody was talking about forcing Russia into the EU...
And regarding that last bit: In Aachen each year the Karlspreis is awarded to those who have contributed to a unified Europe. It is named for Charlemagne, and it is one of the most prestigious awards of its kind.
Charlemagne indeed was a great benefactor of Europe: To widen his realm and spread Christianity, he waged bloody war - and at some point had ~800 (IIRC) Saxons beheaded, in what may have been the first genocide in German history. That bit we no longer talk about.
Awarding a prize named after him is no more and no less reprehensible than to say what that Ukrainian dude did.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:53:20 pm by Helgoland »
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Owlbread

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3096 on: February 01, 2015, 08:59:41 pm »

"Easy access to EU and NATO" leads to this:

This is not something I want to happen to my country. So get away from us.
And in regards to Ukraine, look at this:
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=uk&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fporoshenko%2Fstatus%2F515118331494678529&edit-text=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Ethnic_cleansing_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Galicia

You're literally trying to support the country the president of which glorifies the sadistic mass murderers that committed atrocities even Nazis were horrified of.

If this is what EU and NATO promotes, then there will be war.

I seem to have perturbed you, I apologise. I'm not sure why you're telling me to get away from you though, considering I'm not talking about Russia joining the EU just now.

Isn't it interesting though that on the graphs the ethnic Latvian population of Latvia has remained fairly static, only declining slightly, while the Russian and "Other" ethnic groups have had the sharpest decline? I wonder where all the Russians and Soviets went. Considering the fact that I have yet to meet an ethnic Latvian but have encountered several Russo-Latvians it doesn't seem quite like they all just up-and-left for Mother Russia's bosom.

Regarding the whole Bandera nonsense - I don't pay attention to it. Like the fascism/antifascism dichotomy being bandied about earlier I see it as a distraction that doesn't really have much relevance. I think a lot of it is just to piss off the Russians - something the Ukrainian ultranationalists are apparently very good at. If we start seeing credible evidence that Bandera-style ideas (of the sort that you would presumably fear) are genuinely creeping into the Ukrainian government and we are about to see massacres of Poles and Jews in the 21st Century then yeah I will agree that you have a point. Right now though all you can do is point to a crackpot Svoboda/Pravy Sektor fellow in some cabinet position or show me a swastika tattooed on a police chief's stomach. That's unsavoury, yes, the kind of stuff we need to keep an eye on, but somehow I don't think WW2 style massacres are right around the corner.

In general though I don't see how having a Bandera portrait in your house would be any worse than the Stalin portraits occasionally sported by elderly Russo-Ukrainians in Crimea during pro-annexation rallies in 2014.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 09:18:54 pm by Owlbread »
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Sergarr

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3097 on: February 01, 2015, 09:17:50 pm »

Well personally I'll be glad if all Western-lovers and liberals went away into their beloved European countries and stopped living in my country. Maybe then the remaining ones will be able to build a better state.
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Darvi

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3098 on: February 01, 2015, 09:21:31 pm »

Now that's just intolerant.
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Sergarr

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3099 on: February 01, 2015, 09:26:35 pm »

Now that's just intolerant.
Not if that's what they regularly express as their wish. If the so want to "Свалить с этой ебаной рашки", we surely must comply with their decision. Maybe even give them a free ticket to the train! Let them experience the West up close and personal. I'm not going to be surprised if after a year, half of them turn as Knit Tie did.
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Owlbread

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3100 on: February 01, 2015, 09:32:19 pm »

How could experiencing Scotland up close and personal be so bad as to turn Knit Tie into a Russian nationalist? Then again, I suppose he is in Edinburgh after all... yeah, I can't really blame him.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 09:34:11 pm by Owlbread »
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3101 on: February 01, 2015, 11:18:44 pm »

Do you know how much time and money these things take to build?
Couple of years, I guess. Ten, twenty tops. And the Sevastopol situation was awkward ever since Ukraine became independent - at least a small facility (which would be easily expandable) could've been built there much earlier.
Helgo, Sevastopol isn't just a port in the sense of it being a pier and a bunch of buildings where ships can dock. No, Sevastopol is a port in the sense of it being an absolutely massive military - industrial complex at an incredibly important location, which is simultaneously one of the few unfreezing ports we have and and a fully - equipped warship factory - cum - battlefleet headquarters to boot. It is a product of several decades of disproportionately huge investments by an equally disproportionately paranoid superpower, and saying that building another Sevastopol is somehow more feasible than simply paying rent to Ukraine for the existing one, or, as of now, dealing with sanctions is rather ignorant of both economics and geography, in my opinion.

Quote
Am I really the only one who sees the Russian intervention in Ukraine and Crimea as the desperate actions of a fading power struggling to stay relevant in the modern world in the face of China, the EU and the USA, especially as it sees its past colonial territories and modern-day puppet states e.g. Yanukovych-era Ukraine drifting away to greener pastures?
I agree in general, but it gets Knit mad and doesn't lead anywhere, so I usually stay quiet about it.
No, by all means, go right ahead and tell us what you think! Aside from pointing out the factual error of saying that Yanukovich's Ukraine was a puppet state of Russia, which it wasn't, I mean, have you seen the exorbitant sum he charged Putin every year for the aforementioned port of Sevastopol, I am not going to say a word. Ignorantly convincing yourself that other countries are poor and unimportant and will stay that way is a favourite Western pastime, and one that has deep roots in history as well - I think the first European mention of Russia as a totalitarian basket case of a country dates back to the XII century, and let's not forget how thoroughly Russia was discredited by the European pundits during its days of carving out the world's largest unified empire, and so I am not going to interfere with this hallowed tradition of showing one's head up one's own ass out of sheer respect for the persistency with which you approach this uneasy task. Maybe you could even say how Russian economy is going to collapse in the immediate future, as well.

How could experiencing Scotland up close and personal be so bad as to turn Knit Tie into a Russian nationalist? Then again, I suppose he is in Edinburgh after all... yeah, I can't really blame him.
Edinburgh is an amazing city, and my experiences in it have been nothing short of wonderful. The actual reason why I've been swinging to the right ever since I came here is, I believe, summed up by Anatoly Karlin quite well:
Quote from: Anatoly Karlin
Paradoxically, spending a lot of time in the West does not make these expats significantly more liberal or anti-Putin; even the reverse, if anything. On closer analysis this is not surprising. Even when in Russia, they already have access to what Western “free journalists” write about their country – if not in the English-language original, then translation websites like Inosmi. When spending time in the West, many realize their own country isn’t that bad in comparison; and that typical American perceptions of Russia tend to be irredeemably skewed (“Is it always cold in Russia?”, “Do you drink vodka everyday?”, “What do you think about your dictator Putin?”). Consequently, even someone who may be relatively liberal in Russia not infrequently ends up defending many aspects of Russian politics and society that he otherwise hates when in the West.

Also, Owlbread, modern Russians really do have easy access to EU and NATO - getting out of Russia is a very cheap and quick process nowadays.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 11:55:14 pm by Knit tie »
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MDFification

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3102 on: February 02, 2015, 12:01:26 am »

Do you know how much time and money these things take to build?
Couple of years, I guess. Ten, twenty tops. And the Sevastopol situation was awkward ever since Ukraine became independent - at least a small facility (which would be easily expandable) could've been built there much earlier.
Helgo, Sevastopol isn't just a port in the sense of it being a pier and a bunch of buildings where ships can dock. No, Sevastopol is a port in the sense of it being an absolutely massive military - industrial complex at an incredibly important location, which is simultaneously one of the few unfreezing ports we have and and a fully - equipped warship factory - cum - battlefleet headquarters to boot. It is a product of several decades of disproportionately huge investments by an equally disproportionately paranoid superpower, and saying that building another Sevastopol is somehow more feasible than simply paying rent to Ukraine for the existing one, or, as of now, dealing with sanctions is rather ignorant of both economics and geography, in my opinion.

Change that couple decades into the last two centuries. Sebastopol was the nexus of the Russian Empire's heydey of expansionism - that long forgotten period of time following the Napoleonic wars where Russia was considered the police of Europe, the hammer that was supposed to drop on any great power that got too big for its britches. Unfortunately for Russia and the Concert of Europe, the French and British decided to take the opportunity to show Russia who the real Empires were in the Crimean War, setting the stage for the first world war...
It's sad, really. It's a clearly Russian city, chock full of Russians and Russian history. But because of moronic communist land swaps (oh, how they loved to make sure ethnically unified territories didn't exist back in the USSR. It made it very hard to imagine revolt if your neighbour didn't speak your language or follow your faith) it wound up in the Ukraine, when they should have just been building a bridge.
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3103 on: February 02, 2015, 12:18:31 am »

Do you know how much time and money these things take to build?
Couple of years, I guess. Ten, twenty tops. And the Sevastopol situation was awkward ever since Ukraine became independent - at least a small facility (which would be easily expandable) could've been built there much earlier.
Helgo, Sevastopol isn't just a port in the sense of it being a pier and a bunch of buildings where ships can dock. No, Sevastopol is a port in the sense of it being an absolutely massive military - industrial complex at an incredibly important location, which is simultaneously one of the few unfreezing ports we have and and a fully - equipped warship factory - cum - battlefleet headquarters to boot. It is a product of several decades of disproportionately huge investments by an equally disproportionately paranoid superpower, and saying that building another Sevastopol is somehow more feasible than simply paying rent to Ukraine for the existing one, or, as of now, dealing with sanctions is rather ignorant of both economics and geography, in my opinion.

Change that couple decades into the last two centuries. Sebastopol was the nexus of the Russian Empire's heydey of expansionism - that long forgotten period of time following the Napoleonic wars where Russia was considered the police of Europe, the hammer that was supposed to drop on any great power that got too big for its britches. Unfortunately for Russia and the Concert of Europe, the French and British decided to take the opportunity to show Russia who the real Empires were in the Crimean War, setting the stage for the first world war...
It's sad, really. It's a clearly Russian city, chock full of Russians and Russian history. But because of moronic communist land swaps (oh, how they loved to make sure ethnically unified territories didn't exist back in the USSR. It made it very hard to imagine revolt if your neighbour didn't speak your language or follow your faith) it wound up in the Ukraine, when they should have just been building a bridge.
Well, we are certainly going to build a bridge there now. Better late than never, eh?

EDIT: Who wanted to talk about Russian achievements? We can now into smartphones!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 01:21:27 am by Knit tie »
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MarcAFK

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3104 on: February 02, 2015, 01:51:17 am »

It certainly wouldn't be cheap to build a new port, but compared to the cost of hosting an Olympics/financing a war ..... maybe...
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.
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