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[Knit tie]

Doublepost for doubleplusgood news (for Russia).

It appears that El-Murid has been rather preemptive in his assessment of Putin's contribution to the Russian economy as "all thievery and kickbacks." The commentary is somewhat lacking, but this is, nevertheless, the best Anglophone compilation of all the various disjointed data about the growth and the structure of the Russian economy in the years 2000-2013.

EDIT: Hey Sheb, you wanted to see some badly maimed corpses in Donetsk, if remember correctly. Here you go.

[Knit tie]

People, helloooo!
Anybody here?
Culise?
We have some unfinished business between us, it would be nice if we could flamewar some more here, you know.

[Sheb]

Well, we were waiting for you to answer Culise's post.

Also, re-reading it, it's clear Culise understand that your point is that the EU and US don't act according to their moral compass. His/her/its point is that just because in one other crisis they let their moral compass be overrun by one national interest or other doesn't mean they don't have a moral compass and aren't following it now.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/rebels-suffer-heavy-losses-battle-ukraines-debaltseve-n296841

[miljan]

People should not worry about west, or actually any big country. They will change their moral how it suits them. It was always like that and always will be. They are big and they can do it. But if someone does something bad, that is not  excuse for someone else to do the same.

Russia is doing now something similar  what USA tried with cuba back than (well there are more similar examples ). Both thing are bad, and suck for little countries, but that is how it is. USA with NATO was very aggressive in the last 20 years (well before that also), and with potential to expand, instal missile silos close to  russia for defense (that can also act as offensive weapon) , so russia   is acting in full "defense" mode as it looks at it as a threat, and in doing that it is destroying ukraine. The error of west was when SSSR fall apart it did not reform NATO, and split it out so EU get its defence organisation. Also europe did not act against things USA did, and in some case it even supported it.

The thing are more or less at stop. Pro russian offensive slowed down, and in some part ukraines are starting to attack. Rebels are still trying to close the ukraine pocket where a lot of ukraine soldiers and other armor is located

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Knit tie]

Well, we were waiting for you to answer Culise's post.

Also, re-reading it, it's clear Culise understand that your point is that the EU and US don't act according to their moral compass. His/her/its point is that just because in one other crisis they let their moral compass be overrun by one national interest or other doesn't mean they don't have a moral compass and aren't following it now.

Because helping the current Poroshenko's government is totally a moral thing to do. Right.

Actually, that's my main point - EU and US are not doing the morally right thing here, everything else I don't really care about and can concede my position on. For all it's worth, I actually agree with Culise's previous point, although just in the sense of general semantics - every country does both good and bad things.

[Mr. Strange]

Actually, that's my main point - EU and US are not doing the moral thing here, everything else I don't really care about and can concede my position on.

Only if we are ignoring that opposing Russian violation of it's neighbours sovereignty could be considered moral thing to do...

[Sergarr]

Actually, that's my main point - EU and US are not doing the moral thing here, everything else I don't really care about and can concede my position on.

Only if we are ignoring that opposing Russian violation of it's neighbours sovereignty could be considered moral thing to do...

Morality is not a thing that can be applied to relationships between countries.

[Knit tie]

Actually, that's my main point - EU and US are not doing the moral thing here, everything else I don't really care about and can concede my position on.

Only if we are ignoring that opposing Russian violation of it's neighbours sovereignty could be considered moral thing to do...

Said neighbour has plenty of feathers on his snout as well, to the point where I believe it starts to resemble the caricatural portrayal of USSR during the cold war, right down to human waves of conscripts sent charging onto enemy machineguns.

I could perfectly understand it if the US and EU were equally condemning towards both Russian and Ukrainian violations of international law, but what we get is that while Russia gets opposed, Ukraine gets money and a pat on the head. Honestly, the whole situation kinda resembles the Chechen wars in reverse, regarding how the opposing sides are viewed by the Anglophone community.

[Descan]

Something I've wondered: What's the end-game for the people involved? Obviously Ukrainian gov wants the rebels gone and Crimea back, but what about the Ukrainian citizenry? What does Russia or the Russian people want? What do the rebels want, the rebel government, and the civilians in the rebel territories?

[Comrade P.]

No matter what, they aren't getting Crimea back. Our preciousssssss.

Russian people want the whole thing to end. Somehow. I think. I don't really know what people want.

[Knit tie]

Something I've wondered: What's the end-game for the people involved? Obviously Ukrainian gov wants the rebels gone and Crimea back, but what about the Ukrainian citizenry? What does Russia or the Russian people want? What do the rebels want, the rebel government, and the civilians in the rebel territories?

Rebels want independence for their territories and, ideally, unification with Russia. Russia wants Ukraine to be politically neutral and have a pro-Russian territory within it to serve as a political anchor of sorts. The Ukrainian citizenry wants the war to end as soon as possible, by now, it's becoming as unpopular there as the Vietnam war was in the US or the first Chechen war was in Russia.

[miljan]

Something I've wondered: What's the end-game for the people involved? Obviously Ukrainian gov wants the rebels gone and Crimea back, but what about the Ukrainian citizenry? What does Russia or the Russian people want? What do the rebels want, the rebel government, and the civilians in the rebel territories?

Rebel want to free donetsk and luhansk area and to be independent.
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Russia wants federalization of ukraine, so they can have some influence on it (prevent from joining NATO and similar). Ordinary people want peace.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Something I've wondered: What's the end-game for the people involved? Obviously Ukrainian gov wants the rebels gone and Crimea back, but what about the Ukrainian citizenry? What does Russia or the Russian people want? What do the rebels want, the rebel government, and the civilians in the rebel territories?

Ukrainian government doesn't want Crimea back. It is nothing but headache at this point. Winning international court and getting $billions of compensation from Russia on other hand...

Ukrainian citizens want to be left alone.

What Russian people want is irrelevant because their opinion matters nothing. Besides they want what Russian TV says.

What Russian elites want? Recreation of USSR with annexation* of Ukraine (at least Eastern part), Belarus and Kazakhstan (at least Northern part)

What Putin wants? Place in History.

*It may be not a de jure annexation, de facto is enough.

Oh forgot

*rebels* wants this war to continue forever so they will keep getting money from Russia

[Sergarr]

Funny how Crimea is a "headache" now. Shows that they never really considered Crimea to be a part of Ukraine proper.