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[MonkeyHead]

The means also make it very hard to believe that this is really what the majority of Crimeans actually wanted. Your talking as if it was clear that this is what the people living in Crimea wanted. If this was so why bother to go to such extremes to get the "right" results? Clearly the Russian government didn't share your confidence on this matter.

It was a rather bad PR move on Kremlin's regard, and unnecessary at that, I agree. Nevertheless, I am confident that most Crimeans really wanted to join Russia, due to, among other things, such as polls and demonstrations, the absolute flood of pro-Russian posts and opinions in Crimean social media and a complete lack of anti-Russian ones. And social media is completely uncensored in Russia.

Hell, if you want to know what Crimeans really think, you can ask Avis-Mergulis, he has relatives in Crimea.

@Monkeyhead: Ah, I see! We were talking about different things there - I meant the official Washington's party line in my posts. For all it's worth, I agree with you when it comes to the public opinion.

Ah, right. I tend to think along the lines of "man on the street" as a representation of what a nations attitude truly is, rather than the governmental attitude - what with pretty much every government having a tendency to operate to its own agenda rather than the one of the people it supposedly represents. I see a nation as its people, not its leaders.

[Knit tie]

So do I! But I was talking about the government there, not about the common layman, sorry for not making this clear.

[Frumple]

Are you talking about the public opinion here, or about the attitudes of the government?

If you want to talk about something besides the people, let's put it this way: If there had been even the most remote of veneers of legitimacy, there almost certainly would have been no sanctions, nor substantial shifts in economic or political agendas.

It's admittedly irrelevant since there wasn't, though.

[MonkeyHead]

So do I! But I was talking about the government there, not about the common layman, sorry for not making this clear.

No problem

I think Frumple hits the nail on the head in that last post.

[Knit tie]

So do I! But I was talking about the government there, not about the common layman, sorry for not making this clear.

No problem

I think Frumple hits the nail on the head in that last post.

And here is where I disagree with you and Frumple. But let's leave it at that for today.

[MonkeyHead]

So do I! But I was talking about the government there, not about the common layman, sorry for not making this clear.

No problem

I think Frumple hits the nail on the head in that last post.

And here is where I disagree with you and Frumple. But let's leave it at that for today.

Ok, can do. I am desperate to ask you though if you can see how the events surrounding the political side of things (as in before the shooting started) can be seen as "dodgy" - you know, armed men in a vote, very unusual statistical turn arounds... but it can wait.

[Knit tie]

Since you are that desperate (), the answer is yes, it was really dodgy.

[MonkeyHead]

Since you are that desperate (), the answer is yes, it was really dodgy.

Cool. Thanks! Hopefully you can also then understand the general scepticism that goes along with this then. Us sceptics are far form unreasonable

[Knit tie]

Since you are that desperate (), the answer is yes, it was really dodgy.

Cool. Thanks! Hopefully you can also then understand the general scepticism that goes along with this then. Us sceptics are far form unreasonable

Oh yeah, it's just that governments don't tend to care about morality. But let's talk about that later.

[MDFification]

2)nobody cares about the morality of what Russia did, only the political consequences of it.

Actually next to nobody would complain if Crimea had joined Russia after an acceptable referendum... And people here have consistently been saying precisely that ever since this whole affair started.

Canadian reporting in. The vast majority of Canadians (and our country has one of the largest Ukrainian populations in the world) had no opinion on Crimea joining Russia until it was invaded by armed militants of Russian origin (no comment as to whether they were state-sponsored on not, because that's b8) who called a referendum, shut down media that wasn't pro-Russia etc. The issue is entirely that the West earnestly believes that a foreign power imposed a fraudulent referendum (even if Crimeans wanted to secede) on a sovereign nation at gunpoint, which is clearly unacceptable.

[Knit tie]

Yeah, that's just the logical conclusion, I can't say anything else here.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Are you talking about the public opinion here, or about the attitudes of the government?

Hard to believe that outside of Russia those are linked, right?

[Sergarr]

Are you talking about the public opinion here, or about the attitudes of the government?

Hard to believe that outside of Russia those are linked, right?

[citation needed]

[Ukrainian Ranger]

And here is the confirmation that Russians don't believe that public opinion can have any weight

[Sergarr]

And here is the confirmation that Russians don't believe that public opinion can have any weight

1) You still haven't provided the citation.
2) Extrapolating my behavior onto all Russians.

3) Where did I say that public opinion doesn't have any weight.