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Author Topic: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России  (Read 257602 times)

Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2910 on: January 28, 2015, 11:24:36 am »

I still highly recommend that everybody reads this.

Oh, and this.

@Sheb: I am indeed an irrational nationalist. But so are you - that's why we are friends!
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 11:29:40 am by Knit tie »
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Culise

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2911 on: January 28, 2015, 11:26:30 am »

Yes, actually, it does matter.  Politicians go into politics for power, not money; you can get money in business without the whole issue of "votes" or "public image".  Money is a nice bonus, but if you boot out the most corrupt or those with the greatest opposition to your preferred political platforms, then they'll clean up in public, or at the least, they'll take money from different lobbyists with different positions.  Heck, where I'm from, when things got bad enough with the Republicans and Democrats, we literally voted in a pro-wrestler and B-movie actor on a third party ticket in a mass-protest vote. 

The real problem is that, in the US at least, is that people perceive their votes as not mattering, buy into the propaganda along those lines, and thus don't bother exercising their powers.  That ennui of society will be the death of democracy, if anything. 
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2912 on: January 28, 2015, 11:29:33 am »

I still highly recommned everybody reads this.

Its not that objective, and most of its arguments centre around the fact that "its OK for us to do it as others do it too..." which is a weak argument, as whoever wrote it would have to accept that everyone else doing it is OK for the questionable actions to be OK - it almost accepts that what is going on is wrong. So, is it OK for me to criticize the conduct of the elections in Crimea in the same way I have criticized the US influence in Iraq/Afghanistan? By this documents logic, I sure can.
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Sheb

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2913 on: January 28, 2015, 11:32:45 am »


Oh, and this.


Do you really want us to read a pages-length, passive-aggressive post about the blogger's interactions in the comment sections of a newspaper? Because that's what this look like, and if your argument is that there a stupid pro-Ukrainian people on the Internet, I don't need a source for that.


Anyway, what do you have to answer to the takeover of the medias in Crimea prior to the referendum?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 11:37:54 am by Sheb »
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Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2914 on: January 28, 2015, 11:35:08 am »

@Sheb: I am indeed an irrational nationalist. But so are you - that's why we are friends!
Sadly the EU still has miles to go before it can be considered a nation.

By the way, Knit, do you consider the Saarland referendum free and fair? The first one, I mean, not the second one.
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2915 on: January 28, 2015, 11:41:00 am »


Oh, and this.


Do you really want us to read a pages-length, passive-aggressive post about the blogger's interactions in the comment sections of a newspaper? Because that's what this look like, and if your argument is that there a stupid pro-Ukrainian people on the Internet, I don't need a source for that.

Anyway, what do you have to answer to the takeover of the medias in Crimea prior to the referendum?
It didn't really matter because the general public opinion was pro-Russian way before that. Besides, media superiority does not a vote unfair make, otherwise, most votes in the modern world would be unfair.

I still highly recommned everybody reads this.

Its not that objective, and most of its arguments centre around the fact that "its OK for us to do it as others do it too..." which is a weak argument, as whoever wrote it would have to accept that everyone else doing it is OK for the questionable actions to be OK - it almost accepts that what is going on is wrong. So, is it OK for me to criticize the conduct of the elections in Crimea in the same way I have criticized the US influence in Iraq/Afghanistan? By this documents logic, I sure can.
Hence my point that the Crimean annexation was opposed by the West not due to moral concerns, but due to political ones. I am not saying it was a nice thing to do in a vacuum (irredentism is a very, very dangerous thing, if we accept it as a valid reasoning for changing borders, the world is pretty much screwed), I am saying it was a perfectly normal thing to do as far as modern Realpolitik goes, Russia is not special in this regard. The annexation being representative of the general public's wishes is just a nice karma bonus.

@Sheb: I am indeed an irrational nationalist. But so are you - that's why we are friends!
Sadly the EU still has miles to go before it can be considered a nation.

By the way, Knit, do you consider the Saarland referendum free and fair? The first one, I mean, not the second one.
I am sorry, I need to look it up before I can form an opinion on that. But I don't think you need to love specifically a nation in order to be nationalist, other political species work just fine.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 11:49:42 am by Knit tie »
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Sheb

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2916 on: January 28, 2015, 11:50:00 am »

Knit Tie: there is a difference between "Media superiority" and "Send gunmen close down all the TV stations that oppose your views".

Also the whole referendum was organized by a government led by the guy whose party won like three seats at the last elections, that was "voted in" with 50 gunmen inside the parliament building and several MPs being registered as voting despite them being at some other place at the time.

It's actually really funny to read that blogger called Kiev's a "coup-appointed junta" and then call the Crimean government legitimate with a straight face.

Also, it's is NOT a normal thing to do. If Russia's actions were normal, no one would be freaking out about the post-Cold War order breaking down, and I wouldn't fret about the possibility of war.
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Culise

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2917 on: January 28, 2015, 11:50:30 am »

I still highly recommned everybody reads this.

Its not that objective, and most of its arguments centre around the fact that "its OK for us to do it as others do it too..." which is a weak argument, as whoever wrote it would have to accept that everyone else doing it is OK for the questionable actions to be OK - it almost accepts that what is going on is wrong. So, is it OK for me to criticize the conduct of the elections in Crimea in the same way I have criticized the US influence in Iraq/Afghanistan? By this documents logic, I sure can.
Indeed.  It also neglects that the presence of Russian armed troops alone is worsened by their actions taken during the lead-up to the referendum in order to indirectly influence the results, as opposed the US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, who left so quickly they didn't even leave dust on their boots in large part because the governments voted in refused to accept US soldiers in their nations for any longer than they had to (look at the failed negotiations surrounding the security agreements with both).  If the goal was to rig the elections to provide for pro-West governments in both nations, then the rigging was arguably the most incompetent thing we've seen come out of the Bush administration. 

Also, it's at the best incorrect about the referendum being invalidated if less than 50% of the population actually - no such restriction was emplaced.  It entirely ignores the actual reasoning between the "yes/yes" argument; the entire key to it was that the autonomy would include powers of independent diplomatic relations being vested in the Rada, which had been reduced to a drastically pro-Russian rump by appointment.  In other words, said autonomy would grant the Rada the right to immediately vote through a resolution requesting annexation to Russia. 

There were plenty of ways for Russia to hold a proper referendum in Crimea; they ignored each and every one to get the travesty we saw, because the political goals of Putin did not permit any other outcome than "yes". 
It didn't really matter because the general public opinion was pro-Russian way before that. Besides, media superiority does not a vote unfair make, otherwise, most votes in the modern world would be unfair.

Hence my point that the Crimean annexation was opposed by the West not due to moral concerns, but due to political ones. I am not saying it was a nice thing to do in a vacuum (irredentism is a very, very dangerous thing, if we accept it as an valid reasoning for changing borders, the world is pretty much screwed), I am saying it was a perfectly normal thing to do as far as modern Realpolitik goes.
The argument isn't that media superiority makes the vote unfair.  The argument is that media superiority obtained as part of a campaign of threats and intimidation through military superiority makes the vote unfair.  Also, and it's critical to note, it is not a normal thing to do; hence the outrage that was directed against the US invasion of Iraq, and the outrage that is presently being directed against Russia.  Both were a violation of the status quo of peaceful negotiation and at most, the indirect fighting of war through economic means (sanctions, etc.), and both were rightfully opposed by much of Europe.  There's a reason Bush had to come up with his silly little "Coalition of the Willing"; he needed a PR schtick to give the invasion a veneer of legitimacy, and one that was not bought by many.  It was a normal thing maybe half a century ago, but the perception of world relations changed in 1991, and in PR and diplomacy alike, perception is everything.  That isn't always fair (look at people quietly shuffling Africa under the carpet), but it's not realpolitik alone that is causing the concern. 

Heck, if it was realpolitik alone that governed matters, Iraq would never have happened.  Iraq was the culmination of neo-con and paleo-con ideology surrounding the liberalization of the world through the spread of democracy through whatever means necessary.  It was as ideological as the 19th-century concept of pan-Slavism or the Drang nach Osten. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 11:53:51 am by Culise »
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2918 on: January 28, 2015, 12:07:44 pm »

Then I read Mict's posts and I realize you're not that bad.

And which nationalism do I represent again? The one against indiscriminate murder and terrorism wrought by imperialist countries?
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2919 on: January 28, 2015, 12:09:28 pm »

Knit Tie: there is a difference between "Media superiority" and "Send gunmen close down all the TV stations that oppose your views".

Also the whole referendum was organized by a government led by the guy whose party won like three seats at the last elections, that was "voted in" with 50 gunmen inside the parliament building and several MPs being registered as voting despite them being at some other place at the time.

It's actually really funny to read that blogger called Kiev's a "coup-appointed junta" and then call the Crimean government legitimate with a straight face.

Also, it's is NOT a normal thing to do. If Russia's actions were normal, no one would be freaking out about the post-Cold War order breaking down, and I wouldn't fret about the possibility of war.

As for the Chairman getting few votes in the last election:
Quote from: Anatoly Karlin
Tactical voting. An outfit such as the Russian Unity Party would have no chance at the all-Ukraine level, so pro-Russian Crimeans understandable voted for the Party of Regions. And overwhelmingly so.

And I do consider the Crimean government legitimate on the basis of it being elected by the genuine will of the majority of the people after the legitimate president Yanukovich (who enjoyed plenty of support from Crimea during his reign, let's remember that when we are talking on why Crimea was afraid of the Maidan) was dethroned by a rather small group of radical protesters.

And of course what Russia did in Crimea is not a normal thing to do - irredentism is dangerous, as I've said already. However, my point is that 1)the powers that condemn Russia for Crimea are no morally better and 2)nobody cares about the morality of what Russia did, only the political consequences of it.

EDIT: Jesus Christ, Culise, you should seriously consider a career in journalism. Your posts are 10/10! Just two questions though: if there weren't Russian troops in Crimea, what prevented Kyiv from reacting to its people trying to secede like it reacted to the people of Donbass trying to secede? And if the reunification of Crimea really was what most Crimeans wanted, can we really morally condemn the referendum for not being in accordance with all the European laws? After all, my argument is, and has been, that while the referendum was not perfectly free and fair, it did represent the actual desires of the majority of Crimeans.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 12:28:55 pm by Knit tie »
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Sergarr

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2920 on: January 28, 2015, 12:23:29 pm »

indiscriminate
I object to that. It's very discriminate. It's directed onto our enemies - those who refuse to listen to our point of view.
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Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2921 on: January 28, 2015, 12:27:30 pm »

2)nobody cares about the morality of what Russia did, only the political consequences of it.
Actually next to nobody would complain if Crimea had joined Russia after an acceptable referendum... And people here have consistently been saying precisely that ever since this whole affair started.
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2922 on: January 28, 2015, 12:31:41 pm »

2)nobody cares about the morality of what Russia did, only the political consequences of it.
Actually next to nobody would complain if Crimea had joined Russia after an acceptable referendum... And people here have consistently been saying precisely that ever since this whole affair started.
Really? Are you sure that people wouldn't condemn it as illegitimate even then, due to Russia, a geopolitical enemy of the USA and the EU, gaining more land and political influence? Well, I suppose this is just speculative history, so none of us have any proof of our ponts being correct. I could bring up Kosovo, but I don't think that applies that much, to be honest. And moreover, do you believe Poroshenko would let Crimea even have the secession referendum if Russia stayed out of this?

EDIT: I guess you and Culise wouldn't. You are Germans. Sadly, the rest of the world aren't Germans.

EDITEDIT: How about some nice Russian Orthodox chanting to help us all cool down?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 12:49:07 pm by Knit tie »
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Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2923 on: January 28, 2015, 01:10:42 pm »

EDIT: I guess you and Culise wouldn't. You are Germans. Sadly, the rest of the world aren't Germans.
Ask Sheb then, or smj. The West isn't a monolith of Reagan clones, you know.

And I do believe Poroshenko would've been forced to let it happen - he can't exactly hold those people at gunpoint. If he did, Russia would have a legitimate casus interventionis, and Ukraine would loose much of what little support it gets from the West.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

miljan

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2924 on: January 28, 2015, 01:13:31 pm »

Didn't Crimea already had few referendum but for independence in past? But ukraine did not allow it?
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