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[Erkki]

20 km range for rocket artillery?

It doesn't need to have been a Grad. There are plenty of rocket artillery systems with a range of up to 350 km for many projectile types.

[Sergarr]

These projectiles are much stronger than whatever hit Volnovaha was.

350 km is ballistic missile range. Do I need to show you how a ballistic missile explosion looks like?

[Knit tie]

20 km range for rocket artillery?

It doesn't need to have been a Grad. There are plenty of rocket artillery systems with a range of up to 350 km for many projectile types.

If it was something with more range than Grad, the explosion we saw on that video would've been much bigger. Grad is designed as antipersonnel weapon, not an area-of-destruction one.

EDIT: And if we assume that the missile was of a a longer range, then it's also possible that it was fired from the AFU bulge to the north of Donetsk, where the AFU positions are to the north-north-east of Volnovakha.

[Erkki]

These projectiles are much stronger than whatever hit Volnovaha was.

350 km is ballistic missile range. Do I need to show you how a ballistic missile explosion looks like?

Nope, there are MLRS systems capable of firing a wide range of munitions some of which come with a range of 300 to 350 km even. Naturally, those dont carry a lot of explosive content with them.

If it was something with more range than Grad, the explosion we saw on that video would've been much bigger. Grad is designed as antipersonnel weapon, not an area-of-destruction one.

Even the Grad can fire several types of ammo some of which have pretty good range. Btw rocket artillery without smart munitions is pretty much nothing but an area of effect weapon (unless its used to fire smoke or light even).

[Sheb]

Ok Knit Tie, until you find convincing evidence, I'm going to assume that all bombs that fell on civilians were rebels shooting themselves.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Actually:
1) For modern standard Russian rockets Grad range is up to 40KM.
2) Grad uses has very different types of ammunition. From smoke to anti-tank cluster shells.

[Knit tie]

OSCE report?

And don't you think that it's more likely that one incredibly propagandised instance of dead civilians is much more likely to be a provocation than tens of not propagandised instances?

EDIT: UR, the Ukrainian/Novorossiyan Grads use Soviet missiles they get from Soviet weapon dumps. Those have lower range.

EDITEDIT: Sheb, why don't you show me some convincing evidence of there being Russian troops in Ukraine?/donttakethisseriously

[Sergarr]

These projectiles are much stronger than whatever hit Volnovaha was.

350 km is ballistic missile range. Do I need to show you how a ballistic missile explosion looks like?

Nope, there are MLRS systems capable of firing a wide range of munitions some of which come with a range of 300 to 350 km even. Naturally, those dont carry a lot of explosive content with them.

Okay, I googled and:
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/ws2.htm
"Maximum range of fire is 200 km, however some sources claim that it might be up to 350 km. Minimum range is 70 km."

These very-long-range systems have a really big minimum range.

Also, "Warhead weight 200 kg" is not "a lot of explosive content" for you?

Here's 200 kg of explosives in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F45ka7FXrjA

For information, a GRAD warhead (which can seriously damage a tank if it hits it directly) is only 20 kg in weight.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

EDIT: UR, the Ukrainian/Novorossiyan Grads use Soviet missiles they get from Soviet weapon dumps. Those have lower range.

Yeah, sure, there are no constant convoys from Russia.... And random drunkards learned how to fire artillery systems they captured from Ukrainian army.

[Knit tie]

A piece on where the rebel weaponry comes from.

Anyway, Colonel reports that the AFU are throwing everything they've got at Donetsk and the airport, artillery shelling is beyond intense, but so far no actual land gains have been made by the Ukrainians.

[Guardian G.I.]

Some fresh news:

On the Novorossiyan side, Rusvesna.su cites the chief of DNR's intelligence service, general Petrovsky, who stated on forum-antikvariat.ru that yesterday's and today's Ukrainian attacks are a part of a larger operation aimed at taking control of the whole city of Donetsk. If his claims about the Ukrainian military already preparing videos of Donetsk residents celebrating their arrival are true, the Ukrainian high command are confident in their chances of victory.
One of Strelkov's recent posts ther reveal that he tried to alert the Russian leadership about the constantly worsening situation in Donbass 2 months ago, however the Russian leadership didn't even respond, indicating that they either know better or simply don't care about the fate of Novorossiya.

Furthermore, there are conflicting reports about the activity of Ukrainian warplanes - Rusvesna claims that Ukrainian Su-25 aircraft bombed Novorossiyan positions on the outskirts of Donetsk this afternoon. Colonel Cassad claims that Ukrainian aircraft couldn't attack because of bad weather conditions.

Also, Ukrainian tanks tried to bypass the airport from the east and assaulted the Putilovsky bridge to the southeast of the airport this afternoon. Novorossiyan sources cited by Cassad claim they repelled the attack. Ukrainians reportedly lost several tanks, the bridge was destroyed during the battle.

RT's webcam near the airport shows flares being launched above the airport and distant artillery fire.
Novorossiyan Strela-10 anti-aircraft system in the streets of Donetsk, video recorded before the ongoing battle on the 13th of January.

And random drunkards learned how to fire artillery systems they captured from Ukrainian army.

These drunkards were exempt from military conscription in the USSR and Ukraine, weren't they?

[Comrade P.]

While you are having an intense discussion, I found a pic that sums up russian newsfeed on foreign policies right now, Ukraine aside:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Sheb]

Knit Tie: Indeed although they point out that it's not indiscriminate shooting of civilians, but shooting back at military position within populated areas. Which is still against the laws of war, but what else can you do? Wait and get shot?

I guess they could do more to avoid civilians casualties though, on both side. I wonder how Russia would react if the US was to give higher-precision weapons to Ukraine, would that count as humanitarian help? 

[Knit tie]

Knit Tie: Indeed although they point out that it's not indiscriminate shooting of civilians, but shooting back at military position within populated areas. Which is still against the laws of war, but what else can you do? Wait and get shot?

I guess they could do more to avoid civilians casualties though, on both side. I wonder how Russia would react if the US was to give higher-precision weapons to Ukraine, would that count as humanitarian help? 

Well, OSCE so far has been very anti-Russian, so I think the fact that it is even acknowldeging that civilians are being shor by the AFU artillery is something.

Anyway, Cassad's update feed is live and involves many videos - you should check them out.

As I said, there is no decisive evidence of that, just as there is no decisive evidence of the Voentorg being active. So we have to lower our standards here a bit, because otherwise I can claim with all seriousness that Russia does not send any supplies to Ukraine.

[Helgoland]

One of Strelkov's recent posts ther reveal that he tried to alert the Russian leadership about the constantly worsening situation in Donbass 2 months ago, however the Russian leadership didn't even respond, indicating that they either know better or simply don't care about the fate of Novorossiya.

Maybe Putin has come to his senses and will now let the rebellion wither... One can hope, can't one? Destroying that bridge may have been intended to make supplying the airport more difficult - does anyone have a map with that bridge's location?

-snip-

Oh yeah, I love that picture - depicting Israel as a pig is somewhat, ehm, dickish, though. What's Japan's skull supposed to be?

Knit Tie: Indeed although they point out that it's not indiscriminate shooting of civilians, but shooting back at military position within populated areas. Which is still against the laws of war, but what else can you do? Wait and get shot?

Ha, Sheb, remember the various Israel discussions?

Ninja: Knit, what's Voentorg? Why should the OSCE be anti-Russian if Russia is a member? And how am I supposed to check out Cassad's feed if I don't speak Russian?