Knit tie, the reasons I don't believe your statements and arguments are pretty simple.
Firstly, there are loads of things that just don't make sense. If all the donbass fighters are Ukranian rebels, and there was overwhelming support to join Russia, why have there been so many people fleeing into the Ukraine? There's been lots of people fleeing the area to both countries, but if >80% of the locals supported becoming part of Russia, why would those same people leave to join the rest of the Ukraine?
Secondly, regardless of your political views of an uprising, I don't see how putting boots on the ground by the thounsand, can be constituted anything other than an invasion. You could then argue if it's justified or not, but either way it remains an invasion. The United States definately invaded Iraq to remove Saddam, for instance, although there was quite a bit of political fluff trying to avoid that word. If they had done anything similar in Syria, for instance, I would definately expect to hear that as being an invasion.
What this has relevance to your arguments, is that I keep hearing repeated statements about how this is a Russian or how this is a Ukranian, interposed with other posts where you state that it is impossible to tell a Russian from a Ukrainian. You even had a picture of a guy in a Russian uniform, and you could somehow magically tell that he was not Russian at all. That's simply illogical.
Thirdly, some of these claims have been quite silly. It was a coup that removed Yanukovych from power. Tell me another one. It was also the second time he was removed from power. This time he was replaced by a weak government that was itself replaced several months later in new elections. That's not how coups work. When someone get's couped, there is a new man in power very quickly, and it is absolutely clear who is in charge.
He's also been very, very quiet about this whole thing. There was a flurry of the usual opposition-blaming and label throwing which happens to every ousted president, but he seems to be the single most ineffectual coup victim in the history of politics, standing by as his country gets invaded by a third party, which is what I'm going to have to take it as until he's been seen in the disputed area leading what Russia would claim to be his people.
In the end, there's just too many stories. "It was vacationing soldiers, you can't possibly expect a nation to control it's servicemen!" "We're supporing the rebels against atrocities that were committed by people who look indisinguishable from our soldiers!" "We fail to recognize the existance of this country at all, therefore we cannot be invading a country that doesn't exist!" "They deserve it for oppressing our (again, indistinguishable) civilians who live in that country!" I'm exaggerating for effect, but not by all that much.
If you are telling the truth, you don't need to tell a dozen lies until you successfully cobble together a story that is currently difficult to disprove. If you truly believe what you say, there isno fear in the testing.
If you want me.. and possibly others, to think that you are a Russian patriot, rather than a propaganda-touting shill, the best way to begin is by stating what kind of evidence would convince you that the opposing side is correct. This is something that can be applied to people from both sides.. someone disagreeing with you will be able to explain his beliefs, and list things that he would consider convincing evidence.
I am willing to do this as well, and even am willing to go first.
I'd expect most of the remaining people in the Donbass region are putinists/russian supporters, simply due to the hazards of living in opposition territory for months, along with the population being fairly mobile. I will believe that the invasion has ended when Russia posts casulty lists, and has pensioned off family members. I will not believe that such things cannot be made, as there have been enough prisoners, and enough family members of MIA casulties, to make it impossible for me to believe there aren't any. In order to believe Russia has not invaded at all, there is a lot more that needs to be done. First, I'd need to see the prosecution of at least some of these deserters who are engaging in foreign wars. Secondly, I'd expect to see reparations paid by Russia in return for forgiving the actions of her citizens in a foreign country. Thirdly, I'd expect to see reasurrances and guarantees issued to other nations containing Russian populations, as well as protective measures put forth to prevent a repeat of these actions.
If Putin wants me to believe that he isn't, in fact, invading the Ukraine, he needs to go beyond 'deny, deny, deny', while offhandedly threatening other countries that the Soviets failed to finish exterminating the national identities of.
Also, if you care, I'm in the camp of 'Knit tie is simply a russian patriot', as I have met several others expounding similar views in person.
I'd also love you to find me a Kamchakan Ainu if it is true that Russia is now supporting non-russian minorities...
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Topic: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России (Read 262424 times)