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[Sergarr]

Knit Tie, I just want to clarify, do you at least understand, if not agree, with why people have a problem with how the Crimean referendum was conducted? I.E. the quickness (you saw how long the Scottish referendum was, between when it was declared that it will happen and when it actually happened) the military presence, the absence of UN/EU/third-party observers, the absurd Soviet-style approval rate, the absence of a neutral option?

Again, do you at least understand that? Whether it's that you know why people would have a problem with those, or perhaps why people could see those elements in the Crimean referendum? Even if you don't agree that they are a problem/were present?

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/

"For their part, Crimeans seem content with their annexation by Russia. Overwhelming majorities say the March 16th referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%)."

it's not absurd when it's real

[Knit tie]

-snip-

Absolutely, I've said so several times in this and the previous threads already. And if there was any significant evidence that unification with Russia was not what the absolute majority of Crimeans wanted, as opposed to the evidence that they considered the referendum to be free and fair, I would've had the same concerns Sheb and co. have.

[Descan]

@Sergarr:

That's not what I asked. Again, that would fall under "agree," not "understand."

I.E. you might understand WHY someone would have a problem with that level of approval, but you don't agree that it is a problem because of that Pew poll.

Please don't dodge the question again.

@Knit Tie:

Alright then.

[Sheb]

I would also note that those are post-annexation numbers. I expect that many of those opposed to the Russian takeover either were hounded out (like the Tatars), or left.

24% of Crimean identified as Ukrainian before the takeover. I'm not going to believe 90% of them voted to join Russia.

[Sergarr]

Being able to identify yourself as one nation doesn't prevent you from wanting to join the other

ex. Poland and Baltic states in regards to Europe, which they perceive as a single nation.

[Guardian G.I.]

I'm wondering, is there even a Russian word for "rule of law"?

No.

Maybe they just use the Latinized/Greekitized word?

"Rule of law" is верховенство права in Russian, its a literal translation of the English term.

[smjjames]

Being able to identify yourself as one nation doesn't prevent you from wanting to join the other

ex. Poland and Baltic states in regards to Europe, which they perceive as a single nation.

Uh, source on Europe perceiving Poland and the Baltics as one nation?

[Descan]

My best guess is that he either means that Poland is made of more than one nation and that people conceive the three Baltic states as one nation, i.e. that "Poland and Baltic States" were two separate examples, or he's talking about the Poland-Lithuanian commonwealth or something like that that makes him think Europe thinks of them all as one nation, which is untrue as far as I know. :V

[LordSlowpoke]

of course europe is a bunch of separate independent nations you silly deschan

* LordSlowpoke pats deschan's head gently

or at least so it says in the "dealing with foreigners" handbook the union's ministry of information handed me told me to say

the union is love, the union is life

[Knit tie]

I'm wondering, is there even a Russian word for "rule of law"?

No.

Maybe they just use the Latinized/Greekitized word?

"Rule of law" is верховенство права in Russian.

We even have an expression for "a state where the central authority is the rule of law," which is "правовое государство."

Regarding Ukrainian Crimeans, there are plenty of people who identify as both Russian and Ukrainian, due to the extremely blurred barriers between those two categories of people thanks to the extensive intermarriage and general intermingling of the Russian and Ukrainian people throughout history, and this identity does not influence their political affiliation, as evidenced by the many Donbass separatists who identify as ethnically Ukrainian and many ATO soldiers who identify as ethnically Russian.

And no, there aren't any problems with that on the either side, due the conflict being not an ethnic insurgency, but rather a political schism similar to what happened in the American Civil War.

[Sergarr]

No, I meant, Poland and Baltic states saw Europe in a sort-of-idealistic way - a single entity populated by a single nation called Europeans, which are better than them in every way - more intelligent, more productive, more right. They considered themselves to be worse than Europeans, not because of any rational reasons, but simply because.
Thus - they wanted to join Europe to become like these idealistic Europeans - to become smarter, wealthier, righter, than they were - to be able to call themselves Europeans.
These sort of attitudes are pretty common for Eastern European nations which were part of the communist block.

Similarly, for Ukrainians-in-Crimea, most of them consider Ukraine to be inferior to Russia. Thus they chose Russia over Ukraine when the chance came.
It's not very rational, but rationality has very little place when nations speak their will.

[Knit tie]

It's not very rational,

I would say that it was a rather rational decision in retrospect, considering how badly Crimea has been mismanaged under the Ukrainian rule, but Sergarr is right in his notion that most Crimean wanted to join Russia for irredentist reasons.

[Erkki]

No, I meant, Poland and Baltic states saw Europe in a sort-of-idealistic way - a single entity populated by a single nation called Europeans, which are better than them in every way - more intelligent, more productive, more right. They considered themselves to be worse than Europeans, not because of any rational reasons, but simply because.
Thus - they wanted to join Europe to become like these idealistic Europeans - to become smarter, wealthier, righter, than they were - to be able to call themselves Europeans.
These sort of attitudes are pretty common for Eastern European nations which were part of the communist block.

---

Well, why did any nation want to join EU in the first place? I'd say that the reasons they joined EU for are partially the same as the reasons to them joining NATO. Peace, stability and sovereignty can be darn precious for small countries to have!

[Knit tie]

No, I meant, Poland and Baltic states saw Europe in a sort-of-idealistic way - a single entity populated by a single nation called Europeans, which are better than them in every way - more intelligent, more productive, more right. They considered themselves to be worse than Europeans, not because of any rational reasons, but simply because.
Thus - they wanted to join Europe to become like these idealistic Europeans - to become smarter, wealthier, righter, than they were - to be able to call themselves Europeans.
These sort of attitudes are pretty common for Eastern European nations which were part of the communist block.

---

Well, why did any nation want to join EU in the first place? I'd say that the reasons they joined EU for are partially the same as the reasons to them joining NATO. Peace, stability and sovereignty can be darn precious for small countries to have!

Methinks you fight argue on the internet for the EU as much as I fight argue on the internet for Russia

[Sheb]

Uh, no.