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[Knit tie]

You know, Owlbread, I think you might actually be an upper-class noble twat. After all, it's people like these that have first popularised the idea of "Russians are slaves and cattle."

Knit tie, you are getting dangerously close to starting a flame war (again), be careful with such statements.

My bad, sorry, Owlbread, I didn't want to insult you in any way. What I actually meant was that your statement - Russians have a slave mentality and cannot live without a tsar- was often made by the Russian Imperial nobility in their attempts to convince themselves that serfdom is good long after the rest of Europe has abolished it.

You know, Owlbread, I think you might actually be an upper-class noble twat. After all, it's people like these that have first popularised the idea of "Russians are slaves and cattle."

I'm not saying they're cattle and slaves, I'm just saying that on a deep, cultural level Russians don't have the same idea of personal independence that Ukrainians apparently have. Maybe it's a Cossack thing or something I don't know. That lack of personal or mental independence/freedom is what allowed upper-class noble twats to exploit Russians for so long, then so-called Communist tyrants in the era of the USSR and now gangsters.

There's more to a state's problems than the mentality of its people, you know.

And Makno's organisation was not "end-state communism" in the slightest, it was an ordinary national resistance movement.

A national resistance movement that somehow achieved something that looked an awful lot like "Communism". I think from what I can tell they achieved even more than the Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War.

Makhno's movement was small enough and short-lived enough that it never went beyond "a group of friends" status into "social organisation" status. And group of friends, as opposed to social orgnisations, really can be communist - look at all the Soviet partisan squads during WW2.

Knit tie, you are getting dangerously close to starting a flame war (again), be careful with such statements.

You don't have to worry about me Guardian, water off a duck's back and all that.

Again, sorry. I didn't mean any offense.

@UR: I think you might be a bit biased against Russians due to the current political situation and your ideological views.

[MonkeyHead]

You know, Owlbread, I think you might actually be an upper-class noble twat. After all, it's people like these that have first popularised the idea of "Russians are slaves and cattle."

Knit tie, you are getting dangerously close to starting a flame war (again), be careful with such statements.

My bad, sorry, Owlbread. What I actually meant was that your statement - Russians have a slave mentality and cannot live without a tsar- was often made by the Russian Imperial nobility in their attempts to convince themselves that serfdom is good long after the rest of Europe has abolished it.

IMHO, there is not that much difference between the attitude you describe, and the one of needing a "wolf at the door" (or some such, my knowledge of Russian proverbs is a bit weak) in the form of a strongman leader.

[Sheb]

Knit Tie: At its peak, the Free Territory of Ukraine included 7 millions people, and the Makhnovchine counted tens of thousands of men. You must have a lot of friends.

The main problem is that very little is know about it: unlike Catalonia it didn't attract a lot of foreign journalists and writers, and the Soviets can't be trusted to give an even remotely objective account.

[Owlbread]

My bad, sorry, Owlbread. What I actually meant was that your statement - Russians have a slave mentality and cannot live without a tsar- was often made by the Russian Imperial nobility in their attempts to convince themselves that serfdom is good long after the rest of Europe has abolished it.

I can understand that. The thing that concerns me though is that it seems to have worked.

There's more to a state's problems than the mentality of its people, you know.

There is, I don't doubt that. I'm just pointing out something I observed that may be at the root of some of Russia's problems.

Makhno's movement was small enough and short-lived enough that it never went beyond "a group of friends" status into "social organisation" status. And group of friends, as opposed to social orgnisations, really an be communist - look at all the Soviet partisan squads during WW2.

But if we consider this map:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Does that really look like a "group of friends"? A population of roughly 7 million? That's more than the Donetsk rebels - and they're certainly a social movement.

EDIT:

Ninja'd by Sheb

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Makhno's people also drove off the rather formidable army of the German Empire, if my memory serves.

[Knit tie]

My bad, sorry, Owlbread. What I actually meant was that your statement - Russians have a slave mentality and cannot live without a tsar- was often made by the Russian Imperial nobility in their attempts to convince themselves that serfdom is good long after the rest of Europe has abolished it.

I can understand that. The thing that concerns me though is that it seems to have worked.

Social elite everywhere always was rather good at convincing itself that keeping its lavish lifestyle was a good and moral thing to do. Look at all the colonial powers with their "civilising the natives" talk, for example.

Does that really look like a "group of friends"? A population of roughly 7 million? That's more than the Donetsk rebels - and they're certainly a social movement.

Well damn, looks like I was completely wrong about the size of Makhno's domain after all.

But still, Sheb is right, how can we know that what happened there really was communism and not just a typical warlord dictatorship masquerading as communism?

[Sheb]

Well, we do have a few accounts. On some points especially he was more liberal than the Bolsheviks: allowing all leftist groups the freedom of the press for example. But as for the exact working of the Free State, AFAIK everyone rely on either accounts by Makhno and some of his lieutenants, or the the Bolsheviks, none of which are remotely impartial.

[Knit tie]

Well, we do have a few accounts. On some points especially he was more liberal than the Bolsheviks: allowing all leftist groups the freedom of the press for example. But as for the exact working of the Free State, AFAIK everyone rely on either accounts by Makhno and some of his lieutenants, or the the Bolsheviks, none of which are remotely impartial.

Being more liberal than Bolsheviks and having a bunch of shilling and defaming propaganda works written about it does not a communist state make.

[Owlbread]

Being more liberal than Bolsheviks and having a bunch of shilling and defaming propaganda written about it does not a communist state make.

Indeed it doesn't - they never made a Communist state in Ukraine. It wasn't a state. It was a loosely organised series of workers' and peasants' Soviets and communes. If I remember correctly they abolished money (everything was free exchange, including manufactured goods) and replaced the education system with one that followed the recommendations of Ferrer. That's pretty much what Communism is supposed to be, isn't it?

[Knit tie]

Being more liberal than Bolsheviks and having a bunch of shilling and defaming propaganda written about it does not a communist state make.

Indeed it doesn't - they never made a Communist state in Ukraine. It wasn't a state. It was a loosely organised series of worker's Soviets and communes. If I remember correctly they abolished money.

I don't think they did - they made their own money, with Makhno's face on it. And on what basis can we say that this series of communes was indeed communist and self-governed and not simply subservient to their "glorious leader," like all other Russian civil war's independent warlords' controlled territories were?

[Owlbread]

I don't think they did - they made their own money, with Makhno's face on it.

Can you show us where you read this?

And how can we be sure that this series of communes was indeed communist and self-governed and not simply subservient to their "glorious leader," like all other Russian civil war's independent warlords' controlled territories were?

All we can really do is study academic reports on it, I suppose. Make our own judgements.

[Guardian G.I.]

I don't think they did - they made their own money, with Makhno's face on it.

Can you show us where you read this?

Spoiler: Banknotes and coupons which were circulated on territories controlled by Makhno, images found on Google (click to show/hide)

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Hey guys, any predictions for tomorrow today? I mean how many people will get beaten and\or arrested in Moscow?

I suspect that it will be like summer Siberan stuff with a dozen or so actually arriving to the protest.

[mainiac]

Still funny, given how Americans loves to talks about how they should improve their system. Cultural difference once again?

I wouldn't say the Americans are particularly special in that regards.  People in most places like to talk about how they want everything changed.

It is all about being proud of Russia. It has no goals to strive for. That text  can be shortened to  - "We are ideal already, no need to do anything. Be proud!"

Eh, I think you are reading a bit too much into it.  I mean the British anthem is just "Fuck yeah Britain!" and the French is just "Fuck yeah France we'd fight for France!" and the Canadians are all "Fuck yeah Canada we'd fight for Canada!" and the Americans... recount a chapter of history only Canadians give a shit about.  The only national anthem I can recall with goals is "watch on the left bank" and well... we don't like to talk about that one.

[Fniff]

Did you know I thought that Australia's national anthem was actually Waltzing Matilda right up until I was about to make a remark about it being really depressing and then finding out about the actual national anthem of Australia?
I suppose I'll be more forgiving if Americans mistake Danny Boy for Ireland's national anthem. Then again, it really should be.