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[Owlbread]

Yeah, blaming the whole of Western Europe for the actions of Nazi Germany is kinda weird. And I'm not pushing an anti-Russian line, it's my opinion that the USSR did the actual job of defeating Nazi Germany, but that the US, by showing up and getting into France, Belgium etc, managed to grab a sphere of influence and saved us from communism.

Or is stating that the USSR imposed communism on Eastern Europe an anti-Russian line now?

I'm not really sure if the USSR ever really wanted to impose Communism on us after Trotsky got that ice pick that made his ears burn. Stalin just wanted to create a ring of buffer/puppet states to protect the USSR against more Western invasion, as Guardian has drummed into our skulls for the last few years. Any fighting would take place in Poland, East Germany, Hungary etc rather than Russian soil. They were concerned about the Monolithic West encroaching in their border regions, as they seem to be today. But yes, the whole "Socialism in One Country" thing was a marked departure from the old international Communism espoused by Trotsky and his ilk - and lends itself well to a tyrant keen on both protecting his nation (you have to give him that much) and his rule over it.

Of course anybody arguing that point (as some do today) against NATO expansion around the Baltic/Black Sea/Central Asia etc always seem to miss that it's actually not Russia's right to impose its will on its neighbours and use them as meat shields whenever they feel threatened, or infringe on their right to national self determination - which includes choosing who they ally themselves with. Otherwise we're just recognising Russia as overlord of the East, when those countries should have no overlord - American or Russian.

[Knit tie]

Yeah, blaming the whole of Western Europe for the actions of Nazi Germany is kinda weird. And I'm not pushing an anti-Russian line, it's my opinion that the USSR did the actual job of defeating Nazi Germany, but that the US, by showing up and getting into France, Belgium etc, managed to grab a sphere of influence and saved us from communism.

Or is stating that the USSR imposed communism on Eastern Europe an anti-Russian line now?

I'm not really sure if the USSR ever really wanted to impose Communism on us after Trotsky got that ice pick that made his ears burn. Stalin just wanted to create a ring of buffer/puppet states to protect the USSR against more Western invasion, as Guardian has drummed into our skulls for the last few years. They were concerned about the Monolithic West encroaching in their border regions, as they seem to be today. Of course anybody arguing that point (as some do today) against NATO expansion around the Baltic/Black Sea/Central Asia etc always seem to miss that it's actually not Russia's right to impose its will on its neighbours and use them as meat shields whenever they feel threatened, or infringe on their right to national self determination - which includes choosing who they ally themselves with.

Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeft.

No seriously, you are the leftest person on this forum, I think.

[Sheb]

Well, Stalin turned all the countries he could occupy into Communist states, I don't see why he would have not done so any further. Buffers are nice, but why stop in the middle of Germany?

[Owlbread]

Well, Stalin turned all the countries he could occupy into Communist states, I don't see why he would have not done so any further. Buffers are nice, but why stop in the middle of Germany?

Because it wasn't necessary to protecting the USSR and keeping Stalin's grip on power and it would be very difficult to handle. Stalin was a monster, yes, but he wasn't some expansionist conquerer like Hitler. He wanted to maintain his grip on power and keep the country strong, he didn't want to rule the world. If Russia could rule the world it could do it like the Americans - through economics and military might and so on.

Why bother with trying to expand beyond the Iron Curtain when the East was more like a Bamboo Curtain? You could expand out there quite easily and people were more sympathetic to Communism because they had less. It didn't work out that way 100% of course - see the Sino-Soviet split and the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

[smjjames]

Well, Stalin turned all the countries he could occupy into Communist states, I don't see why he would have not done so any further. Buffers are nice, but why stop in the middle of Germany?

Because that's where they met up with Allied forces heading east?

[a1s]

I am just making a joke about how Nazi Germany with Allies invaded the USSR and got half of Europe under Soviet rule as a result.

Germany is only in The West because of Cold War shenanigans (the way Cuba is in The East), if you look at a 1940 map, you'll notice Germany was quite Central. Nor did Nazis slaughter Russians "like Africans". Racism aside (err... so to speak), Nazis only slaughtered Jews in any large numbers. Imprisoning might have been "a death sentence" for Russian troops, but that's entirely on Stalin.

On the other hand, if USA wanted to "save Western Europe from invasion by the Soviets", all they had to do was stop shipping them weapons. The fact that they did, if not proves, than at least hints at the fact no serious invasion was expected.

#slowPoke

[a1s]

Well, Stalin turned all the countries he could occupy into Communist states, I don't see why he would have not done so any further. Buffers are nice, but why stop in the middle of Germany?

Because that's where they met up with Allied forces heading east?

That's what Sheb is saying: That only Allied ("USA and friends") forces being there had stopped Stalin from painting Europe red. The fact that not only did that not happen, but Russia had agreed to intervene in the Far East (despite Japan pointedly not declaring war on them at their weakest) is discounted as immaterial or in fact supportive of the theory (Russia was clearly itching for some fight).

[Owlbread]

Part of me wishes Russia had successfully invaded Japan because then they could have created some kind of Ainu Soviet Socialist Republic in Hokkaido + Sakhalin. I do wonder if the bloodshed there would have been worse than that caused by the atomic bombings, however.

[Sheb]

Well, I don't think that Stalin was ready to fight to invade the whole of Europe, but he clearly intended to turn all the country "freed"* by the Red Army into Communist States. Without the US and UK, it is my opinion that the whole of Germany, Belgium, Holland, Lyxemburg, Italy, Greece and possibly France would have had some kind of Communist regime imposed on them.

* "" are there, because it's kinda hard to find a word to describe both the invasions of Axis members, and the kicking of the Nazis out of invaded countries. Saying that the USSR freed Germany from Germany sounds kind of silly.

[Owlbread]

Well, I don't think that Stalin was ready to fight to invade the whole of Europe, but he clearly intended to turn all the country "freed"* by the Red Army into Communist States. Without the US and UK, it is my opinion that the whole of Germany, Belgium, Holland, Lyxemburg, Italy, Greece and possibly France would have had some kind of Communist regime imposed on them.

* "" are there, because it's kinda hard to find a word to describe both the invasions of Axis members, and the kicking of the Nazis out of invaded countries. Saying that the USSR freed Germany from Germany sounds kind of silly.

But the establishment of Communist States in the liberated territories under Soviet control only worked because they had the manpower to do it - falsify elections, support the right parties and so on (look at how much effort it took to subjugate Czechoslovakia). Can you imagine how difficult it would be to impose Soviet governments in Greece, Italy, Belgium, Holland, Luxemburg etc all while trying to impose it on the Eastern states as well? Russia had a big army, yes, but there's no way they could have handled that all by themselves.

[Sheb]

Oh, I don't think it took that much. It was more subtle that simply being imposed at gun point. Also, every country at the time had a communist party willing to rule the country.

[10ebbor10]

Part of me wishes Russia had successfully invaded Japan because then they could have created some kind of Ainu Soviet Socialist Republic in Hokkaido + Sakhalin. I do wonder if the bloodshed there would have been worse than that caused by the atomic bombings, however.

The bloodshed of the invasion would have been many times worse than the atomic bombings. All things together, the atomic bombings didn't kill that many people.

[Owlbread]

Oh, I don't think it took that much. It was more subtle that simply being imposed at gun point. Also, every country at the time had a communist party willing to rule the country.

Well... they weren't all that powerful, remember. In most of those countries the Soviets had to support catch-all Left Bloc organisations, strengthen the Communist Party within them to make sure they were the most dominant force by far, then falsify elections (vote stuffing etc by soldiers), maintain a constant military presence to prevent dissent and to coerce and at the same time assassinate key figures that could act as threats. Imposing Soviet rule was so much more difficult for the simple fact that it was more subtle than being imposed at gun point.

[smjjames]

Part of me wishes Russia had successfully invaded Japan because then they could have created some kind of Ainu Soviet Socialist Republic in Hokkaido + Sakhalin. I do wonder if the bloodshed there would have been worse than that caused by the atomic bombings, however.

The bloodshed of the invasion would have been many times worse than the atomic bombings. All things together, the atomic bombings didn't kill that many people.

It would have been the same amount of bloodshed if the US invaded.

[Owlbread]

It would have been the same amount of bloodshed if the US invaded.

I heard a theory that Japan only really surrendered after the threat of Soviet invasion became a clear reality - rather than following the bombings.

But yes, off topic.