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[miljan]

Sometimes I wonder, if today's Internet, message boards and social networks existed in the 1990s, would Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks and other people from war-torn nations fling shit at each other like Russians and Ukrainians today?

I think we're once again witnessing how former brotherly nations become mortal enemies. It happened in Yugoslavia, it happened in lots of places across the former Soviet Union, and now it's going on in Ukraine and Russia.

Don't worry, we will soon become friends once more after the war ends.

Everyone I mentioned are either at odds with each other or still openly hate one another (in particularly bad cases like Azeri and Armenians), and it's been almost 20 years since all the wars. I don't see a better outcome for Russians and Ukrainians.

Well, it depends. In case of things like Serbs and Croatians, after 10 years of the war end it's pretty much more or less friends again. For bosnia its little different as there is tendency of the country falling apart, so they are little more less friendly because of the situation there (but people are normal, at least that I know of). There are some parts in both countries (cro and serbia)  that  still hate each other, especially people that lost someone in the war and some politic parties or organizations. But for majority its not the case. But you will still see internet wars going.

But I dont know will it be same for ukraine and russia. I am a half serb, half croatian (well 75% serb if its that important). Lived on kosovo, but after the cleaning moved to center east part of serbia. But am often going to croatia, as I have family there, and to work there also during summer.

[Descan]

Yeah, if you go based on internet comments, pretty much every country is going to split into civil war, even Canada not a good indicator.

[LordSlowpoke]

every country is going to split into civil war, even Canada

salty scrubs, bear tossers, cheese squeezers and closet americans stuck in a battle royale while the guy in the middle is forgotten because nobody knows he's even there

bring it

[FearfulJesuit]

I dream of a future of cooperation and peace, wherein diplomatic cables are replaced by YouTube comments.

[Darvi]

pretty much every country is going to split into civil war, even Canada

And it's all your fault ain't it.

[mainiac]

I dream of a future of cooperation and peace, wherein diplomatic cables are replaced by YouTube comments.

You dream of nuclear annihilation?

[Owlbread]

Destroying cancer tumor of humanity called Jews is a necessity... It is sad that there is no other way to eliminate it without many, many death of proud Aryans.

(oh god)

UR's comment is reprehensible but I agree with him in principle that I think the world would be a better place if there was no Russian Federation. That's not to say I don't think "Russia" should exist - just like I believe in the independence of England I also believe in the independence of Russia from the Russian Federation. If the forces that make up the "Federation" i.e. Putin and those that control him were removed, the Oligarchs expelled, their political parties eliminated, the Republics made independent and the state replaced with a Republic of Russia or something governed along Democratic Socialist lines where Russia's vast natural wealth and resources could be distributed equally among the people then I think the situation would be improved at least somewhat.

[FearfulJesuit]

Destroying cancer tumor of humanity called Jews is a necessity... It is sad that there is no other way to eliminate it without many, many death of proud Aryans.

(oh god)

UR's comment is reprehensible but I agree with him in principle that I think the world would be a better place if there was no Russian Federation. That's not to say I don't think "Russia" should exist - just like I believe in the independence of England I also believe in the independence of Russia from the Russian Federation. If the forces that make up the "Federation" i.e. Putin and those that control him were removed, the Oligarchs expelled, their political parties eliminated, the Republics made independent and the state replaced with a Republic of Russia or something governed along Democratic Socialist lines where Russia's vast natural wealth and resources could be distributed equally among the people then I think the situation would be improved at least somewhat.

There's a problem here that Westerners don't really get.

Russians don't want democracy. They don't want to be European. They don't like corruption, and they don't really like political oppression, I gather, but they're very clear that they aren't Western.

Free and fair elections in Russia will end up with another Putin installed, at least in the current ideological climate.

[smjjames]

Destroying cancer tumor of humanity called Jews is a necessity... It is sad that there is no other way to eliminate it without many, many death of proud Aryans.

(oh god)

UR's comment is reprehensible but I agree with him in principle that I think the world would be a better place if there was no Russian Federation. That's not to say I don't think "Russia" should exist - just like I believe in the independence of England I also believe in the independence of Russia from the Russian Federation. If the forces that make up the "Federation" i.e. Putin and those that control him were removed, the Oligarchs expelled, their political parties eliminated, the Republics made independent and the state replaced with a Republic of Russia or something governed along Democratic Socialist lines where Russia's vast natural wealth and resources could be distributed equally among the people then I think the situation would be improved at least somewhat.

There's a problem here that Westerners don't really get.

Russians don't want democracy. They don't want to be European. They don't like corruption, and they don't really like political oppression, I gather, but they're very clear that they aren't Western.

Free and fair elections in Russia will end up with another Putin installed, at least in the current ideological climate.

What do they want then? A republic? Tsardom? Democracy =/= political oppression.

IMO it doesn't have to be an exact democracy, you can still have democratic style freedoms in a government style that isn't really a democracy/republic.

[Sergarr]

Yes, because democracy = absolutely inept government which allows for rich people to rob the poor.

At least in Russian history, that is. The ideals of democracy got throughly discredited after 1917 (the soviet = the commune - a democratic institution, was originally the source of political power in USSR. It got canned out fast.) and 1991 (extreme people robbing under the promises of higher quality of life). You'd need at least 30 years to even allow for possibility of democracy to happen in Russia.

[smjjames]

You can have democracy without a capitalistic economy.

From my understanding, the 1990s was because Russia decided to go the other extreme of regulation to no regulation at all, which allowed corruption to prosper and the oligarchs to get in power.

[Sergarr]

Sadly, that's what you get when you allow extreme religious radical into power and leave them unchecked for 70+ years.

After that people tend to hate anything that reminds them of these times.

[Knit tie]

You can have democracy without a capitalistic economy.

From my understanding, the 1990s was because Russia decided to go the other extreme of regulation to no regulation at all, which allowed corruption to prosper and the oligarchs to get in power.

Correct. But those years or rampant, lawless corruption have, for Russians, ruined the idea of "Western democracy", just like the years of Soviet rule have ruined the idea of "domestic democracy." Nowadays people just seek a strong leader who isn't too crazy.

Destroying cancer tumor of humanity called Jews is a necessity... It is sad that there is no other way to eliminate it without many, many death of proud Aryans.

(oh god)

UR's comment is reprehensible but I agree with him in principle that I think the world would be a better place if there was no Russian Federation. That's not to say I don't think "Russia" should exist - just like I believe in the independence of England I also believe in the independence of Russia from the Russian Federation. If the forces that make up the "Federation" i.e. Putin and those that control him were removed, the Oligarchs expelled, their political parties eliminated, the Republics made independent and the state replaced with a Republic of Russia or something governed along Democratic Socialist lines where Russia's vast natural wealth and resources could be distributed equally among the people then I think the situation would be improved at least somewhat.

There's a problem here that Westerners don't really get.

Russians don't want democracy. They don't want to be European. They don't like corruption, and they don't really like political oppression, I gather, but they're very clear that they aren't Western.

Free and fair elections in Russia will end up with another Putin installed, at least in the current ideological climate.

Absolutely. Putin is currently widely (and not undeservedly, I might add) regarded as one of the best rulers Russia's had.

Sometimes I wonder, if today's Internet, message boards and social networks existed in the 1990s, would Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks and other people from war-torn nations fling shit at each other like Russians and Ukrainians today?

I think we're once again witnessing how former brotherly nations become mortal enemies. It happened in Yugoslavia, it happened in lots of places across the former Soviet Union, and now it's going on in Ukraine and Russia.

Don't worry, we will soon become friends once more after the war ends.

Everyone I mentioned are either at odds with each other or still openly hate one another (in particularly bad cases like Azeri and Armenians), and it's been almost 20 years since all the wars. I don't see a better outcome for Russians and Ukrainians.

Well, it depends. In case of things like Serbs and Croatians, after 10 years of the war end it's pretty much more or less friends again. For bosnia its little different as there is tendency of the country falling apart, so they are little more less friendly because of the situation there (but people are normal, at least that I know of). There are some parts in both countries (cro and serbia)  that  still hate each other, especially people that lost someone in the war and some politic parties or organizations. But for majority its not the case. But you will still see internet wars going.

But I dont know will it be same for ukraine and russia. I am a half serb, half croatian (well 75% serb if its that important). Lived on kosovo, but after the cleaning moved to center east part of serbia. But am often going to croatia, as I have family there, and to work there also during summer.

I predict the same for Russia and Ukraine. Slavs tend to be very forgiving, we Russians even have a word in our landuage to signify an unwillingness to remember past unpleasant happenings - "отходчивость." And besides, public opinion as presented by internet posts, let alone Youtube comments, tends to be spectacularly skewed towards negativity and radicalism.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Russians are very forgiving, indeed
Kadyrov is a hero of Russia and example to follow.


It is not that simple in Ukraine. Unlike Russians we care about our dead. Don't expect some Girkin to be declared Hero of Ukraine (unless by occupation government)

[XXSockXX]

Correct. But those years or rampant, lawless corruption have, for Russians, ruined the idea of "Western democracy", just like the years of Soviet rule have ruined the idea of "domestic democracy." Nowadays people just seek a strong leader who isn't too crazy.

If you phrase it like that, do you still wonder why everybody is so concerned about Russia? I can't think of any example of a "strong leader" that hasn't lead to war, except if said leader was only powerful inside his own country and otherwise isolated and contained. Russia isn't what it used to be, but it's still one of the most powerful countries in the world. If Russians want a strong leader, the logical conclusion for the rest of the world must be that Russia should be weakened as much as possible, before things get too bad.

I often think too that politicians have a tendency to be incompetent idiots, but I'd much prefer to spread the power between as many of them as possible instead of betting on a single guy to not fuck everything up. Because let's face it, power corrupts, and "strong leaders" usually don't remain "not too crazy" for long.

Also, and I don't really want to pull another Godwin here, but if you say it like that, people being distrustful of democracy after bad experiences and hoping a strong leader might fix everything, boy, does that remind me of something.