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[Knit tie]

Народное Творчество

UR, on the other hand, appears to be a more traditional nationalist: his love for Ukraine is amalgamated with contempt towards Ukraine's enemies and firm belief in the absolute moral rightness of his cause.

[Helgoland]

His comparison between love and nationalism seems accurate then: The difference between patriotism and nationalism is one of degree, just like love can have various amounts of jealousy admixed. And if jealousy has a reason, it ceases to be jealousy, and the  two ends of the spectrum move towards each other: In much the same way patriotism and nationalism become harder to differentiate in wartime or other times of hardship, and I guess this is what we're seeing with UR. I can understand how he feels, and I would feel the same way, I guess: If someone raped your significant other, would you not - at least for the fraction of a second - have the impulse to cut them open?

Regarding vatniks, though, one of he main qualities of a vatnik as defined by the Russian internet users is an irrational belief in his country's superiority, rather than just devotion to it. For example, a vatnik would doggedly insist that Russian legal system is the best, while a more rational patriot would acknowledge its faults.

Does 'loving blindly' mean not seeing faults? I always thought it meant not caring about them, thus seeming blind to those around you.

[Knit tie]

Does 'loving blindly' mean not seeing faults? I always thought it meant not caring about them, thus seeming blind to those around you.

That's a beautiful quote, although I've never said it. Could I put it in my signature?

But I am afraid that the term "blind love", like "blind devotion", has negative connotations in the English language, those of willful refusal to consider reality or consequences and dogged fanaticism. If I were to describe what is said in the quote above, I would use "love despite all faults" instead.

For all it's worth, I understand UR, and do my best to not reciprocate his dislike for Russia with contempt for Ukraine. But I would like to disagree with you slightly on the suppposed unity of patriotism and nationalism, for I believe that love and hate are separate things, however often intermingled, and a great degree of one does not necessarily birth other. A great many patriots fought with respect of their enemies, and likewise, a great many nationalists despised those who were not of their group much more than they admired those who were ones with them in spirit.

[Helgoland]

Fixed it, and please do! And yes, your way of saying it is better. I need to work on my English more intensely...

But unity of patriotism and nationalism? Hell, I never said something like that! All I said was that they're on two ends of a spectrum, that there's a continuum of sentiments between the two. Thus a pure form of either is very rare, and even rarer in troubled times. But I fear we are losing ourselves in semantics.
And, in UR's defense, he's stated repeatedly that he's got no beef with Russia as a nation, just with the political leadership - but the English language often muddies the difference.


@Respect for their enemies: Didn't you tell us of Soviet front line propaganda emphasizing that the enemy were the Nazis, not the German people? It sounds like what you are saying now. That reminds me - this is a tangent, more of a funny anecdote than a contribution to the conversation: My grandpa once told me about the propaganda at the front lines in WWII. Both sides had huge speakers pointing towards the enemy to dmoralize them. The one Soviet message he remembered and related to me? 'The difference between you and us is the following: On your side, every second soldier has the iron cross. On our side, every second soldier has a grenade thrower.'

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Knit Tie Unlike many Ukrainians I considered Russia to be Empire of Evil long before the war started. Recent events only confirmed that I was right. In fact I had so many "I told you" moments during this year...

You have inhumane system in so called Russian Federation. And it will become worse with time because Russians do big nothing to make their country better. North Korea level of shit is much closer than you think. When I look at 10-15 year old Russians, I am scared. That is a brainwashed cruel generation very similar to the one that emerged between 1917 and 1933.

[Knit tie]

@Respect for their enemies: Didn't you tell us of Soviet front line propaganda emphasizing that the enemy were the Nazis, not the German people? It sounds like what you are saying now.

Thanks for the sig, Helgo! That's my first one, you know... 

A bit of trivia, since we are talking about WW2 propaganda: When western people think of Soviet wartime propaganda, they most often remember the infamous "Kill the German" piece by Erenburg and misplace it in time, into 1944-5, so as to make the Red Army seem as bloodthirsty as the Cold War propaganda demanded it. It reality, "Kill!" (that's the official name) was written in the July of 1942, when the morale situation was downright catastrophic and the only Germans that the Soviet troops could kill were enemy soldiers. When the Red Army gained the potential (and the inclination) to brutalize German civilians, the official Soviet propaganda line very rapidly changed to "spare the German, kill the Nazi" instead.

Knit Tie Unlike many Ukrainians I considered Russia to be Empire of Evil long before the war started. Recent events only confirmed that I was right. In fact I had so many "I told you" moments during this year...

You have inhumane system in so called Russian Federation. And it will become worse with time because Russians do big nothing to make their country better. North Korea level of shit is much closer than you think. When I look at 10-15 year old Russians, I am scared. That is a brainwashed cruel generation very similar to the one that emerged between 1917 and 1933.

You just took a big fat dump on my and Helgo's joint propaganda effort to portray you as sympathetic to the masses of Bay12, you know that?

EDIT: That was a joke, just in case.

[mainiac]

BTW, one of the big difference between the Anglo-Saxon and the Asian ways of thinking I've noticed is that the Anglo-Saxons are more inclined to believe that there is only one absolute truth, while Asians (to which I ascribe Slavs, in mentality sense) are more predisposed to believe that there are many subjective truths, instead.

Funny, the people here would say the exact opposite.

[Knit tie]

BTW, one of the big difference between the Anglo-Saxon and the Asian ways of thinking I've noticed is that the Anglo-Saxons are more inclined to believe that there is only one absolute truth, while Asians (to which I ascribe Slavs, in mentality sense) are more predisposed to believe that there are many subjective truths, instead.

Funny, the people here would say the exact opposite.

This is to imply that I am refusing to see the truth, is it?

[mainiac]

Not really.  I don't always have a point.

[Erkki]

BTW, one of the big difference between the Anglo-Saxon and the Asian ways of thinking I've noticed is that the Anglo-Saxons are more inclined to believe that there is only one absolute truth, while Asians (to which I ascribe Slavs, in mentality sense) are more predisposed to believe that there are many subjective truths, instead.

Funny, the people here would say the exact opposite.

Absolutely.

[Vilanat]

BTW, one of the big difference between the Anglo-Saxon and the Asian ways of thinking I've noticed is that the Anglo-Saxons are more inclined to believe that there is only one absolute truth, while Asians (to which I ascribe Slavs, in mentality sense) are more predisposed to believe that there are many subjective truths, instead.

Funny, the people here would say the exact opposite.

Its an interesting assessment. if we try and base that on longer cultural heritage, i'd say that some asians can propose that the "anglo-saxons" would be more inclined to believe in a narrower definition of truth due to the effect the monotheistic/gnostic abrahamic religions and aristotle and later on the scientific method has on people world view, while upbringing in religions such as buddhism and hinduism might allow for more subjective views in the definition of the truth.

Even if it can have some basis, which is debateable, i see no reason to include the slavs with the asians and no reason to bundle all asians with the same group. i also think that while the historic cultural heritage of a group is important, it can be made redundant within 1-2 generations. so even if the slavs were like the "asians" in that regard, the soviet education and culture completely eradicated this quality.

[mainiac]

My mind went to the education system.  The english speaking world is noteworthy for being much less formulaic and test based then the rest of the world but many English speakers still complain that their nations are too rigid all the same.  Asian countries are the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Helgoland]

Semantics, people! There's different ways of interpreting 'many truths'. I guess the West is inclined to believe that there exists only one objective truth, but that nobody can know it for sure - hence empiricism, scepticism and all that jazz. Or the other way around, really - most of this thinking come from the Enlightenment.
On the other hand (and I base this solely on what Knit said) the 'Asians' (however we define that group in this context) might believe that there is no objective truth, but rather multiple subjective ones - thus making empiricism rather pointless and necessitating other epistemologies.

Edit: That second bit is my understanding of what Knit said, not necessarily my own opinion.

[Sergarr]

Well then I guess I don't consider myself as Asian, then, since the very idea of "no objective truth" fells abhorrent to me.

[Vilanat]

Well, now that i re-think it, russia did have the Nihilism movement which might have carried on informally through people mindsets. then again, the soviet communism probably had far stronger counter effect on this regard.