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[Knit tie]

Anecdotes vs data... do we really need to explain this?

Why should we? Data supports the anecdotes! Show me the evidence that the referendum was inaccurate in its representation of crimean people's wishes. Actual evidence, not speculation and truthy guesswork.

Yeah. I can dig up videos of people protesting the referendums, marhing for the little green men to go away and getting beaten up for opposing the new Crimean government if you want me to. The plural of anecdote isn't spelled data for a reason.

Indeed. And data says that Crimeans are happy with the referendum.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

This topic is hilarious.

[Knit tie]

This topic is hilarious.

I agree - best fun I've had in ages!

[mainiac]

Why should we? Data supports the anecdotes! Show me the evidence that the referendum was inaccurate in its representation of crimean people's wishes. Actual evidence, not speculation and truthy guesswork.

So you want us to provide solid, irrefutable evidence that there is no good data.  Yeah.

[Sergarr]

I've real1zed to the last four pages were off-topic. Train got rail on. Over.

[Sheb]

Okay. So first, let me guess this out of my system.

There's no solid data on non-Tatars protesting against Crimea's integration into Russia. And Tatars stopped being loud after their leader got kicked out of Crimea.

Is this seriously your argument? "They aren't protesting after we beat them down, so that mean they support us"? Didn't you learn anything from 70 years of USSR? Fuck you. That kind of shit is the stuff that make me think UR's is a perfectly good answer to Russia. Sorry for the venting, but I needed it.

Now:
1) You made the statement that there was support for joining Russia, and didn't back that with anything. The burden of proof is on you.
2) Even if there was, that's no excuse for Russia's action. No one here (except maybe UR) would have any problem if the Crimean had elected a separatist government at the recent elections and then organized a referendum on independence, afterward to do whatever they want. Instead, Russia invaded Crimea.
3) That being said, I offered data backing my claim. These polls from mid-2013 that I've posted several times over the various Ukraine threads, are the last ones I know before the Maidan. Interestingly, they show that Crimeans don't think of themselves as Ukrainians (40% identified themselves as Russians, 24% as Crimeans, 15% as Crimean-Tatars and 15% as Ukrainians), but that Russians wasn't the majority identity either.

However, a bit later, when asked "What should be the status of Crimea", only 23% said they would like to joind Russia.

[Sergarr]

23% is good enough for me.

After all, the Right Sector + Svoboda have about 6% of the votes, yet they've carried our the whole revolution in Ukraine all by themselves.

It doesn't actually matter how many people vote, what matters is how many people are ready to fight to defend their believes.

History is decided by the winner, after all...

[Knit tie]

Now:
1) You made the statement that there was support for joining Russia, and didn't back that with anything. The burden of proof is on you.
2) Even if there was, that's no excuse for Russia's action. No one here (except maybe UR) would have any problem if the Crimean had elected a separatist government at the recent elections and then organized a referendum on independence, afterward to do whatever they want. Instead, Russia invaded Crimea.
3) That being said, I offered data backing my claim. These polls from mid-2013 that I've posted several times over the various Ukraine threads, are the last ones I know before the Maidan. Interestingly, they show that Crimeans don't think of themselves as Ukrainians (40% identified themselves as Russians, 24% as Crimeans, 15% as Crimean-Tatars and 15% as Ukrainians), but that Russians wasn't the majority identity either.

However, a bit later, when asked "What should be the status of Crimea", only 23% said they would like to joind Russia.

Here's a series of recent polls, one of which shows that the absolute majority of Crimeans are satisfied with the referendum. Therefore, we can make the conclusion that said majority of Crimeans really did want to join Russia.

EDIT: I think this thread is the most stereotypical political discussion thread of all such threads currently active. People hate each other and engage in poo-flinging, what could be more entertaining?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

This just in; the nu-USSR suppresses dissent, especially from minorities

[Sergarr]

Hey, it's not our fault they're trying to dissent! They should get back into the line, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvash_people did.

They're a fourth-sized ethnic minority in Russia, too. Ever wondered why you never heard of them? Because they support Russia.

[Knit tie]

This just in; the nu-USSR suppresses dissent, especially from minorities

The article quotes an unsubstantiated claim of an anti-Russian activist posted on a pro-Ukrainian news site, concludes that the persecution of Crimean Tatars is inevitable solely on the basis of the fact that the Soviet government also persecuted them and portrays the "extremist literature" law as being applied specifically to islamic holy texts.

Meanwhile, A conference of Crimean Tatars' People's Council refuted claims that the Tatars were being oppressed.

Hey, it's not our fault they're trying to dissent! They should get back into the line, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvash_people did.

They're a fourth-sized ethnic minority in Russia, too. Ever wondered why you never heard of them? Because they support Russia.

Sergarr, you are seriously not helping your point of view by sounding like the pro-Russian version of UR.

[Helgoland]

Oh, to a Western European Sergarr sounds much worse: UR's stance we can just brush off as the nationalism of a young nation, but Sergarr's advocacy of falsifying historic records, open contempt for democratic processes, and usage of violence as a legitimate political tool is something for which even I need two beers, a very close circle of friends, and about fifteen minutes of preliminary remarks.

EDIT: I think this thread is the most stereotypical political discussion thread of all such threads currently active. People hate each other and engage in poo-flinging, what could be more entertaining?

We could be sitting together drinking and paying people to fling actual poo at each other. Then we could bet on it. How much do you think does a poo-flnging hooker cost?

[Sergarr]

But I'm tired of playing nice! It doesn't prevent sanctions and economical attacks, while preventing our victories!

The current "compromisal" strategy of Kremlin is literally the worst possible strategy one can do in that situation. They should've either not done anything at all, or they should've rushed the Ukraine while its forces (and forces of their European allies) were still unmobilized and unprepared. By partially invading and stalling, they're showing their utter incompetency and maybe even stupidity bordering on treachery, which is not actually all that suprising coming from a bunch of corrupt oligarchs.

The Putin has managed to seriously devaluate his words by first preparing for war in the April/May, by using all that "our soldiers will hide behind donbass citizens" rhetoric, and also (as I recently learned) doing things like canceling vacations for medics near the potential front-line.

If only he carried through his intentions, we wouldn't have this total clusterfuck on our hands right now. Should've put our Western "partners" before a fact of conquered Ukraine, and started negotiations from there.

[Knit tie]

Oh, to a Western European Sergarr sounds much worse: UR's stance we can just brush off as the nationalism of a young nation, but Sergarr's advocacy of falsifying historic records, open contempt for democratic processes, and usage of violence as a legitimate political tool is something for which even I need two beers, a very close circle of friends, and about fifteen minutes of preliminary remarks.

I honestly don't think that, objectively, both UR and Sergarr are that different from each other on the scale of radicalism or nationalism. Except one's vatnik and the other's salnik.

EDIT: I think this thread is the most stereotypical political discussion thread of all such threads currently active. People hate each other and engage in poo-flinging, what could be more entertaining?

We could be sitting together drinking and paying people to fling actual poo at each other. Then we could bet on it. How much do you think does a poo-flnging hooker cost?

I imagine quite a lot, there's a strong positive correlation between the perversity of an erotic act and its cost.

[mainiac]

23% is good enough for me.

After all, the Right Sector + Svoboda have about 6% of the votes, yet they've carried our the whole revolution in Ukraine all by themselves.

It doesn't actually matter how many people vote, what matters is how many people are ready to fight to defend their believes.

History is decided by the winner, after all...

Yes but Putin is a lizardman who rules all of Russia with mindwaves so I can make up bullshit too.