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[mainiac]

Ah so you were exposed to other points of view, realized they had an agenda and turned to conspiracy theories.

Why is it that the more cynical people become the more naive they are when faced with utter bullshit?  In my experience it's pretty much a perfect relationship, cynicism exactly corresponds to naivete.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

After all, if the desired and the real are the same, even the most odious propaganda mouthpiece needs not lie.

Do you mean that National guard does crucify 3-year old boys, MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian aircraft and every  member of volunteer  battalion was promised to get 2 East Ukrainian slaves after the war?

Well, the MH17 really was shot down by a fighter airplane as the picture shows, and considering that there were no Russian aircraft in that area at the time (because otherwise the Ukraine would trumpet this fact all over the news), said airplane was most likely Ukrainian. I don't know of any concrete evidence that "a parcel of land and 2 (or 20) slaves" is what the commander of the Donbass battalion promised his troops, but I do know that the battalion was once dismissed and recreated for looting and also that the volunteer battalions, in general, have punitive operations against the civilian populace as one of their main functions.

.... Hahahahahahah


Just to help so you don't say this again:
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-satellite-image-of-a-ukrainian-fighter-shooting-dow-1658910062

Then we have the vector of the attack shown in the photo. Why is an SU-27 taking a highly oblique shot at an un-maneuvering heavy airliner? Why not fall behind it so as not to let the crew see you coming and be at the best possible position for followup attacks and for your missiles to have the best chance of hitting? Additionally, the SA-11 that struck MH-17 did so in the forward hemisphere, near the left side of the cockpit, which would be a near impossible engagement angle for the firing solution shown in this picture. In fact, the missile would have had to of made a tight backwards question mark flight to the other side of the jet before detonating. This is totally ludicrous.

[Helgoland]

picture

You really fall for that cheap fake?
Distance earth-plane: Less than 10 km
Distance sattelite-earth: Between 100 km and 200 km
Distance sattelite-plane: Comparable
Intercept theorem: In effect, as our world is locally euclidean
Size of plane according to picture and the above observations: Larger than a field

Either Ukraine has monster planes and enough power to bitchslap the laws of physics, or Scotland is not good for you, Knit.

[mainiac]

Toeing the line?  He just expressed a conspiracy theory.  If Ukraine shot it down then the entire western media would be complicit in the conspiracy of keeping it hushed.  The Dutch government would be complicit.  The charity that a large part of the passengers were members of would be complicit.  They would all need motivations for being accomplices after the fact (or is it before?  Spooooooky.)

[mainiac]

Oh no, does that make me more cynical then you?

[Knit tie]

It appears that you are right and the image is indeed a fake and I was wrong. Well, that's what I get for trying to fan the flames without properly inspecting the evidence first! Still, it is not really clear who shot down that plane and if it's all a provocation plot or just a tragic mistake that is used as an excuse for Ukraine and Russia to play the blame game.

EDIT: Even the place I got the damn picture from says it's fake. God damn was I stupid and overeager there.

EDIT2: Even the other Russian state-owned media channels claim the photo was a fake. I think the Russian expression of "ёбаный стыд" is appropriate here.

TRANSFEREDIT: @Mictlantecuhtli (hope I spelled that correctly): The actual Russia watcher you are refetting to is Simon Ostrovsky of Vice news, who is known for his pro-western slant. In the report that you are claiming shows how the DNR is "a fascist movement", there is really nothing to indicate this fact, aside from a very unfortunate phrase by Mozgovoy about how he will "arrest women for drinking", which was really, as he himself states later, a failed attempt to refute a rape apologist's claim with the help of an argumentum ad absurdum.

As for Anatoly Karlin - I highly recommend him, as the majority of his posts are skillfully argumented and meticulously sourced.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

picture

You really fall for that cheap fake?
Distance earth-plane: Less than 10 km
Distance sattelite-earth: Between 100 km and 200 km
Distance sattelite-plane: Comparable
Intercept theorem: In effect, as our world is locally euclidean
Size of plane according to picture and the above observations: Larger than a field

Either Ukraine has monster planes and enough power to bitchslap the laws of physics, or Scotland is not good for you, Knit.

That cheap fake was demonstrated in news of one of the largest state owned channels... It is not some tabloid. It is BBC level. Sure, British and Russian media are same

[Knit tie]

picture

You really fall for that cheap fake?
Distance earth-plane: Less than 10 km
Distance sattelite-earth: Between 100 km and 200 km
Distance sattelite-plane: Comparable
Intercept theorem: In effect, as our world is locally euclidean
Size of plane according to picture and the above observations: Larger than a field

Either Ukraine has monster planes and enough power to bitchslap the laws of physics, or Scotland is not good for you, Knit.

That cheap fake was demonstrated in news of one of the largest state owned channels... It is not some tabloid. It is BBC level. Sure, British and Russian media are same

The largest state owned channels are frequently also the most shameless propaganda outlets. The photo I so mistakenly used in my argument was shown on the "Pervuy Canal", which is as trustworthy now as it was in the days of the USSR - i.e., not at all.

Also, Mictlantecuhtly, as I have just demonstrated with my rather epic fail, just because someone or something agrees with your point of view it doesn't mean that this someone or something is correct, and vice versa. So please, I insist, give those watchers I listed a try, some of them are even openly anti-Russian for a good blanaced view on the situation.

[Baffler]

I actually really like Anatoly Karlin, at least for his futurism stuff. I'm not saying we see eye to eye on it, but he has a talent for making and defending clear points. If he writes about Russia, I'll read it.

[Knit tie]

I actually really like Anatoly Karlin, at least for his futurism stuff. I'm not saying we see eye to eye on it, but he has a talent for making and defending clear points. If he writes about Russia, I'll read it.

Be my guest. I sometimes disagree with him as well, especially when it comes to the topics of Russian Empire's history and conservative values, family or otherwise, but it is obvious to me that he is an excellent debater.

[Helgoland]

Did this come up yet? It's a bellingcat report on the movement of a Buk convoy from Russia through Ukraine days before the MH-17 incident, pieced together from open-source footage.

[Sergarr]

EDIT: I was too fast to post for my own stupidity.

Also, it's interesting how getting actual access to Western media sources make Russian people very anti-Western.

I used to believe that West was not really all that bad and that they mostly wished the better for us and that they've had a better society... until I've spent two-three years reading what English-speaking people tell about their countries (quite ironically, most of that reading happened on this very forum).

[Helgoland]

Those are Americans, Segarr - their society is indeed not one you should strive to emulate. But have you never heard me speak about Germany? Not the Germans as a people, them I can't stand - no, about the country, about the institutions, about life here. Dammit, Russia's part of Europe - Europe is where you should look for comparisons! The so-called West is far from monolithic, you know.

[Knit tie]

Did this come up yet? It's a bellingcat report on the movement of a Buk convoy from Russia through Ukraine days before the MH-17 incident, pieced together from open-source footage.

That's very interesting, thank you! I'll need to examine it more closely.

[smjjames]

Those are Americans, Segarr - their society is indeed not one you should strive to emulate. But have you never heard me speak about Germany? Not the Germans as a people, them I can't stand - no, about the country, about the institutions, about life here. Dammit, Russia's part of Europe - Europe is where you should look for comparisons! The so-called West is far from monolithic, you know.

As much as that is a slight swing at the US (I know it's in good humor though), Russia is culturally and historically closer to Europe while the U.S. is a mishmash of various imported cultures.

Also, helgo, I thought you were German?