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[Zangi]

If we are comparing arming/supporting/training people to be the equivalent to owning responsibility for their actions...  Yea... The US does that a lot too.  Double standards are nifty lil notions ain't they?

[Sheb]

I never said anything about arming them, everyone knows the US's been doing that. But training them? US ain't done that yet.

[nenjin]

I never said anything about arming them, everyone knows the US's been doing that. But training them? US ain't done that yet.

We've been structuring a training program for about the last 6 months. The reason it has gone nowhere yet is because we're having problems vetting Syrian rebels. Can't find the article for it, but it was on CNN two days ago, talking about this specific issue. So while we haven't trained anyone yet, we've been logistically planning for it for a while.

[Vilanat]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/08/west-training-syrian-rebels-jordan

Also in libya
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2011/04/201142172443133798.html

[RedKing]

Regarding the aerial dick-waving: The US doesn't send B-52s up and down the coast of Kamchatka, or near Vladivostok. Flying them in the Gulf of Mexico is a HUGE escalation, and I imagine they're going to be shadowed by whole squadrons of the USAF's finest when they do visit.

The US did deploy some B-52s to the UK this summer for recent NATO wargames, and that was no doubt in response to the Ukraine crisis, but that's still several hundred miles away, and it's to friendly military allies in the region. Russia can't claim that anymore. It's not like they can say "Oh, we're just visting our best buds in Havana, nothing to see here."

[Sheb]

What about that time the US sent B-2s on a mock bombing run over South Korea?

[nenjin]

What about that time the US sent B-2s on a mock bombing run over South Korea?

Doing exercises in an allied countries' aispace is not an act of aggression, unless you're a crazy dictator who is worried about threats from every quarter.

[Sheb]

So is doing exercise in international waters. And frankly, Russia would do it over their allies's territory, except they don't have any.

[Knit tie]

Well, there is a certain degree of responsibility: after all, Russia pretty much created the whole situation in Ukraine.

I would like to dispute that actually. In my opinion, the whole situation in Ukraine is condeoned by Russia, but it didn't cause it and doesn't control it. This rebellion has been coming for a long time now, mostly because the post-Soviet Ukraine has been becoming increasingly nationalistic over time, with big emphasis on "national identity" (свидомость), which alienated the ethnic russians living in Dontskaya and Luganskaya oblasts. And when the Maidan happened and one oligarchial junta got replaced by another oligarchial junta, the aforementioned regions decided that they didn't want to be a part of Ukraine anymore.

And now there's also the issue of many people in Ukraine's government being openly neo-Nazi.

And please, gentlemen, let's be rational: there's no actual proof (i.e. photographs, videos, etc.) that there are russian troops in Ukraine. There are many supply convoys, I can confirm that, which are carrying humanitarian and sometimes military aid, or at least were until very recently, but supply convoys do not an armed invasion make. If anything, the Ukrainian government has been claiming that it has been fighting Russian troops for a while now, but they are still to give any supporting evidence for that. I think Herr General's words are still actual today.

[Sheb]

I disagree. Just because you got interethnic tension doesn't mean you resort to violence. I should know, I'm from Belgium. There is no way this would have blown up without the Crimea precedent and the potential rebels expecting Russian support and being fed shit about neo-nazis out to kill them by Russians media.

[Sergarr]

According to some people, it has already blew up with the snipers killing people on Maydan. Plenty of people there believe the snipers were working for Russians.

And neo-nazis are real there. I mean, there are neo-nazis in the current Ukrainian parliament, like the leader of the Azov Batallion, Andriy Biletsky.

(proof that he is in the Ukrainian parliament)

[Knit tie]

I disagree. Just because you got interethnic tension doesn't mean you resort to violence. I should know, I'm from Belgium. There is no way this would have blown up without the Crimea precedent and the potential rebels expecting Russian support and being fed shit about neo-nazis out to kill them by Russians media.

I agree that the Crimean annexation was most likely the spark that drove the rebels to armed resistance, but I don't believe that the rebel forces expected the Russia to provide support - why would it risk a war with NATO over some random miners and their coal pit? Crimea Putin could risk, because the peninsula's geography is so defensible it just screams "try and take me by force!", but not Donbass.

And besided, do you honestly believe that interethnic tensions in a prosperous, democratic first-world country such as Belgium are comparable to interethnic tensions in dirt-poor dictatorships that suggenly have their centralised power removed? Don't look at Belgium, look at Uganda, Congo and Sudan - when the holder of the biggest stick fell, all the different ethnicities started grinding their axes in each other's skulls.

And I do believe that we should relocate this discussion tho the thread that I've made specifically for discussing the crisis in Ukraine.

EDIT: Oh, and and in defence of my previous argument.

[Sheb]

Except Russia did support the rebels. I'm sure they expected support, and they got it.

Also, you have a few Neo-Nazis in every parliament. Hell, your "Liberal Democratic Party" got over 50 seats in the Duma. That doesn't  mean anything.

And I'm sure we can discuss it here unless the OP deems Ukraine out-of-topic. No need to split discussions in 50 different topics.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

PTW before it dies in flames

[Sergarr]

Except Russia did support the rebels. I'm sure they expected support, and they got it.

Also, you have a few Neo-Nazis in every parliament. Hell, your "Liberal Democratic Party" got over 50 seats in the Duma. That doesn't  mean anything.

And I'm sure we can discuss it here unless the OP deems Ukraine out-of-topic. No need to split discussions in 50 different topics.

Have you also missed the fact that he's not only in parliament, but is also a commander of a volunteer battalion?

Having a neo-nazi in parliament is not the problem, the problem that he has his own personal military regiment. How many countries do you know that have neo-nazis with their own little armies?