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Author Topic: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России  (Read 257381 times)

Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2985 on: January 29, 2015, 08:18:06 am »

Cue removal of GPS tags... And international observers aren't worth squat, we've seen that often enough.

What about a UN peace mission?
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smjjames

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2986 on: January 29, 2015, 08:20:53 am »

Re cease fire: Only problem is that we've seen how previous cease fires went, so, there's going to have to be more to it than just 'stop shooting at each other'.

Also, how exactly would an UN peace mission keep the two sides from fighting?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 08:31:54 am by smjjames »
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MarcAFK

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2987 on: January 29, 2015, 08:50:18 am »

Re cease fire: Only problem is that we've seen how previous cease fires went, so, there's going to have to be more to it than just 'stop shooting at each other'.

Also, how exactly would an UN peace mission keep the two sides from fighting?
Oh it's easy, the UN could send in soldiers from volunteer 'neutral' countries, since the conflict is in Europe they could send in NATO 'peace keepers' like they did in Kosovo.
Then they could target the equipment and forces of both sides, in the event that hostility breaks out they shoot at everybody fairly.
If the rockets aimed at Ukrainian positions happen to miss that's just an unfortunate accident.
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smjjames

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2988 on: January 29, 2015, 08:55:54 am »

Re cease fire: Only problem is that we've seen how previous cease fires went, so, there's going to have to be more to it than just 'stop shooting at each other'.

Also, how exactly would an UN peace mission keep the two sides from fighting?
Oh it's easy, the UN could send in soldiers from volunteer 'neutral' countries, since the conflict is in Europe they could send in NATO 'peace keepers' like they did in Kosovo.
Then they could target the equipment and forces of both sides, in the event that hostility breaks out they shoot at everybody fairly.
If the rockets aimed at Ukrainian positions happen to miss that's just an unfortunate accident.

Only problem is that Russia is part of the security council that would likely need to stamp their OK for such a peace mission.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2989 on: January 29, 2015, 08:59:04 am »

Yup, any UN mission will be a lame duck since neither side is going to agree to a Peace-enforcing mission.
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Frumple

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2990 on: January 29, 2015, 09:52:42 am »

... so what's this about the duma and... something about east germany?
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Sergarr

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Frumple

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2992 on: January 29, 2015, 10:08:55 am »

Ah, missed that.
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Culise

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2993 on: January 29, 2015, 10:23:13 am »

Yup, any UN mission will be a lame duck since neither side is going to agree to a Peace-enforcing mission.
Ukraine might have originally.  They were calling for one from the start.  Now, however, I agree; they might have difficulty trusting one. 

By the bye, the talk about how the US and West would accept this coming from a pro-West Russia is amusing, because it reminded me of the strategic assessments of multiple countries in the last century alone: Romania's expedition against Communist Hungary (suppressed), Italy's expedition against Fiume (suppressed), Hussein's expedition against Kuwait (Gulf War), Turkey against Cyprus (embargo against the filibuster state), Indonesia against Timor (diplomatically opposed), and Indonesia against both Brunei and Malaysia (militarily opposed).  In fact, the only ones I can think of that that could be considered such were India in Goa and Indonesia in West New Guinea, both of which took on a strongly-ideological cast in the anti-imperial, anti-colonialist United States, and Morocco in Western Sahara, which has largely been left by all third parties (both the USA and USSR, and later Russia) to the UN to (fail to) resolve.  Israel may be considered a possibility as well, but it's been very careful not to officially annex the lands it took from Syria in part to avoid igniting an unnecessary political powderkeg, and it did ultimately return the lands it took from Egypt as part of a permanent peace agreement. 

Plus, let's assume that it was accepted; that would certainly be a triumph of realpolitik, but it does not follow that the rejection of an annexation is also realpolitik.  That is to say, the West might hold their nose if other political contingencies preclude a full response, but that does not mean they would be pleased to do so.  Nor does it follow that the converse is true that they would have rejected it automatically even under the circumstances of a legal, properly-conducted referendum being held under independent, third-party (say, the OSCE) observation.  The point of a proper referendum in the region is not that it would have been legal or illegal (guess how many complaints have been brought up by the US State Department about the "illegal" Catalonian referendum in 2014), but whether it can be said to have accurately reflected the opinions of the people in the region.  The referendum that was held, if it does, does so only by coincidence; it was intended to have a particular result, and matters were arranged accordingly.  It seems odd to censure America and the West to act according to their moral beliefs regarding the matter, and believe they should instead ignore their morality entirely to act according to realpolitik alone (which would be to quietly brush the Crimea annexation under a rug and maintain economic partnership with Russia), while praising Germany for taking a principled, moral stance in other matters. 

Oh, and by the bye, fun fact to those arguing that America has "always opposed" Russia: did you know that America's closest friend in Europe was originally not Britain, and only barely France (Jeffersonian politics aside, America rarely had the stomach for Bonapartism), but actually, consistently Tsarist Russia?  It was always a very odd friendship between the strongly authoritarian and democratic nations, as odd as the Franco-Russian Entente would be later, but it was one that existed nonetheless.  Russo-American animosity, in terms of the relative history of both nations, is actually quite young, clocking in at around a century. 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 10:27:00 am by Culise »
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Sheb

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2994 on: January 29, 2015, 10:26:23 am »

At this point, I think I should stop posting in this thread and just hire Culise to do so for me. You manage to express my point of view with more eloquence that I could muster.
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Culise

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2995 on: January 29, 2015, 10:28:58 am »

Bad idea.  At some point, I'll probably stress myself out over being so argumentative and run away from the thread again, like I did the previous times I started on this track.  ^_^
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Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2996 on: January 29, 2015, 11:35:02 am »

Culise, I'll have to agree with Sheb. Where are you from, anyway?
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Culise

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2997 on: January 29, 2015, 12:07:09 pm »

I'm actually an Ami born and bred.  Sorry if that disappoints. ^_^

Also, I need to make a minor correction to my previous post.  The Romanian-Hungarian War was ended after diplomatic shenanigans (specifically, the Allies blocked all payment of reparations from Germany and most reparations from Bulgaria or Turkey, and threatened to eject Romania from the post-war alliance network - Romania blinked first), not military suppression. 

EDIT:
Sorry again, that's American, not indigenous Taiwanese.  Sorry for confusion.  I've used that slang for a long time, and I knew it was non-standard, but...ah, well.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 12:10:56 pm by Culise »
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Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2998 on: January 29, 2015, 12:42:24 pm »

Naah, I'm always glad to see sensible Americans in the Europol threads ;)
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2999 on: January 29, 2015, 03:32:10 pm »

Yes, I know that Tsarist Russia and America were buddies. Too bad things went sour after the revolution...

If anything, could I please wait a bit with answering to your megapost? I don't really feel like arguing today, sorry.

Just a quick commentary though: it seems, Culise, that we are misunderstanding one another again. My point is not that the US and the EU act according to their moral principles when it comes to Ukraine, no, it's quite the opposite, I say that they don't act according to their moral principles, but rather according to their political ones, which dictate that a strong, politically aggressive Russia is a dangerous thing that should be prevented if the possibility of it forming arises.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 03:56:49 pm by Knit tie »
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