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[Phmcw]

Russia is not attacking Ukrainian soil, I believe. Russia is supporting the Ukrainian rebels, who are the ones being shelled by the Ukrainian army, by the way.

Meh, we have tons and tons of proofs that there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine. That's not really a secret at this point.

[Owlbread]

Russia is attacking Ukrainian soil in that they are waging a proxy war by supporting the rebels who are attacking Ukrainian soil.

[Knit tie]

Hey, I'm not being dogpiled!

And about invading sovereign countries:

Every country that considers itself to be great must invade some other sovereign country at least once per 50 years, or else risk losing the title!

Sergarr, please don't post flamebait like that. You are seriously not helping.

Russia is attacking Ukrainian soil in that they are waging a proxy war by supporting the rebels who are attacking Ukrainian soil.

And USA is waging a proxy war by supporting an ATO that leads to shelling of Donbass civilians.


I honestly think it's useless to argue at this point - we all have firm beliefs we think are the truth here, and so discussion is inherently pointless.

[Erkki]

However, only Russia has manned its borders with an attack ready multi-divisional force "in exercises" since 1980s, has annexed a part of another sovereign nation, broken several important treaties and is for the very least half guilty for thousands of dead and IIRC about half a million who have lost homes. That is not "defending" in anything but rhetorics. Some people here dismiss all those homeless, dead, incapacitated, all the suffering and defend Russia's actions. How can you possibly be proud of such a nation? What is wrong with you? We are not anti-Russian because the de-escalation of the conflict is also to Russia's advantage, and as has been noticed this week, Russia is currently being hurt way more than we are.

One can look at the debacle with as much cynicism as wished, but the conflict and its victims remain very real. One can understand the reasoning behind its "justification" but it does not need to be accepted.  We don't care if US or NATO is this or that country has done thing or the other in the past. All petty excuses.

[smjjames]

Hey, I'm not being dogpiled!

And about invading sovereign countries:

Every country that considers itself to be great must invade some other sovereign country at least once per 50 years, or else risk losing the title!

Sergarr, please don't post flamebait like that. You are seriously not helping.

I thought it was funny and that he was joking around.

[Knit tie]

Hey, I'm not being dogpiled!

And about invading sovereign countries:

Every country that considers itself to be great must invade some other sovereign country at least once per 50 years, or else risk losing the title!

Sergarr, please don't post flamebait like that. You are seriously not helping.

I thought it was funny and that he was joking around.

He probably is, but people in this thread tend to take things wayyyyyyy too damn seriously.

[Owlbread]

And USA is waging a proxy war by supporting an ATO that leads to shelling of Donbass civilians.

Yes, it is. However - they aren't waging a proxy war against Russian soil because the rebels are not fighting on Russian soil, they're fighting on Ukrainian soil. The US is waging a defensive proxy war against Russia, while Russia is waging an offensive proxy war.

I honestly think it's useless to argue at this point - we all have firm beliefs we think are the truth here, and so discussion is inherently pointless.

I don't see why. We're in complete agreement.

[Darvi]

Hey, I'm not being dogpiled!

And about invading sovereign countries:

Every country that considers itself to be great must invade some other sovereign country at least once per 50 years, or else risk losing the title!

Sergarr, please don't post flamebait like that. You are seriously not helping.

I thought it was funny and that he was joking around.

He probably is, but people in this thread tend to take things wayyyyyyy too damn seriously.

Wars are srs bsnss.

[Knit tie]

Hey, I'm not being dogpiled!

And about invading sovereign countries:

Every country that considers itself to be great must invade some other sovereign country at least once per 50 years, or else risk losing the title!

Sergarr, please don't post flamebait like that. You are seriously not helping.

I thought it was funny and that he was joking around.

He probably is, but people in this thread tend to take things wayyyyyyy too damn seriously.

Wars are srs bsnss.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[a1s]

Also, we believe that the current war in Ukraine was started by the Ukrainian government, not rebels, and is being fueled by, again, the USA

I'm lightly on your side of the fence, but this is just too much. The war was no more started by Kiev than the Civil War was started by The North, they may have declared the ATO, but it was Novorossiya that declared they were seceding. There are very few countries in the world that will sit idly by and watch their territory diminish. Crimea was special (It was a former Turkish territory, still with a decent Tatar minority, that Russia took for it's own and Krustchev gave to Ukraine half a century ago for essentially no reason), and had it been the only territory change Ukraine would have let it go. But Donetsk and Luhansk are filled with Ukrainians (who are basically Russians with an accent, there is no genetic difference and the cultural one is still rather weak.) In the immortal words of Klichko (which he hasn't said yet) "A house divided against itself will fall like a house of cards".

[Phmcw]

The current drop in oil prices is due to supply and demand.

Also, people did give a shit about Russia occupying Crimea, it's just that Ukraine, in an utterly fail way, tried to take the peaceful route and ended up looking like they outright surrendered.

Yeah the supply will stay high as long as the west need it, though.

About Crimea, why? It was never Ukrainian anyway. And no European power lifted a single finger. That's not appeasement, that's not caring.

Europe have a lot to lose and nothing to gain in this crisis : Russia is a conveninent export partner that sell what we need and buy what we sell, and it isn't a competitor in any meanignfull way. We really don't need more influence in eastern Europe so we Bruxelles doesn't care about Ukraine but we try to keeo our human right situation tidy, so we had to act on Ukraine.
Ideally, we'd ditch the US from the negociation because they have a lot to gain from this crisis : a weakened Europe and a weakened Russia.   

[Sergarr]

However, only Russia has manned its borders with an attack ready multi-divisional force "in exercises" since 1980s, has annexed a part of another sovereign nation, broken several important treaties and is for the very least half guilty for thousands of dead and IIRC about half a million who have lost homes. That is not "defending" in anything but rhetorics. Some people here dismiss all those homeless, dead, incapacitated, all the suffering and defend Russia's actions. How can you possibly be proud of such a nation? What is wrong with you? We are not anti-Russian because the de-escalation of the conflict is also to Russia's advantage, and as has been noticed this week, Russia is currently being hurt way more than we are.

One can look at the debacle with as much cynicism as wished, but the conflict and its victims remain very real. One can understand the reasoning behind its "justification" but it does not need to be accepted.  We don't care if US or NATO is this or that country has done thing or the other in the past. All petty excuses.

I'm not very proud of my nation because it failed to invade Ukraine properly, blitzkrieg style. If it has done that, there wouldn't be a prolonged war and bloodshed. If it hasn't invaded at all, there also wouldn't be a war on our borders. But with taking over Crimea, the only resolute course of action remained was a quick restoration of the pro-Russian government.

Our government, however, failed to react to situation properly, thus killing thousands of people in an attempt to "take a middle position".

Have I mentioned already that I kind of hate our government?

[Darvi]

Now that's just dickish.

[Knit tie]

Also, we believe that the current war in Ukraine was started by the Ukrainian government, not rebels, and is being fueled by, again, the USA

I'm lightly on your side of the fence, but this is just too much. The war was no more started by Kiev than the Civil War was started by The North, they may have declared the ATO, but it was Novorossiya that declared they were seceding. There are very few countries in the world that will sit idly by and watch their territory diminish. Crimea was special (It was a former Turkish territory, still with a decent Tatar minority, that Russia took for it's own and Krustchev gave to Ukraine half a century ago for essentially no reason), and had it been the only territory change Ukraine would have let it go. But Donetsk and Luhansk are filled with Ukrainians (who are basically Russians with an accent, there is no genetic difference and the cultural one is still rather weak.) In the immortal words of Klichko (which he hasn't said yet) "A house divided against itself will fall like a house of cards".

The Donbassians tried to declare their independence, Kiyv absolutely refused to parlay with them and started shooting them instead. It takes two sides to start a war, you know, and I do not condone Kiyv's actions here just as I do not condone Russia's actions in the first Chechen war. I do believe that while Kiyv as provoked to start the ATO, its response has been thoroughly excessive, and just as you cannot unequivocally condemn Kiyv for its actions, you cannot unequivocally condemn Russia for its actions, either.

However, only Russia has manned its borders with an attack ready multi-divisional force "in exercises" since 1980s, has annexed a part of another sovereign nation, broken several important treaties and is for the very least half guilty for thousands of dead and IIRC about half a million who have lost homes. That is not "defending" in anything but rhetorics. Some people here dismiss all those homeless, dead, incapacitated, all the suffering and defend Russia's actions. How can you possibly be proud of such a nation? What is wrong with you? We are not anti-Russian because the de-escalation of the conflict is also to Russia's advantage, and as has been noticed this week, Russia is currently being hurt way more than we are.

One can look at the debacle with as much cynicism as wished, but the conflict and its victims remain very real. One can understand the reasoning behind its "justification" but it does not need to be accepted.  We don't care if US or NATO is this or that country has done thing or the other in the past. All petty excuses.

I'm not very proud of my nation because it failed to invade Ukraine properly, blitzkrieg style. If it has done that, there wouldn't be a prolonged war and bloodshed. If it hasn't invaded at all, there also wouldn't be a war on our borders. But with taking over Crimea, the only resolute course of action remained was a quick restoration of the pro-Russian government.

Our government, however, failed to react to situation properly, thus killing thousands of people in an attempt to "take a middle position".

Have I mentioned already that I kind of hate our government?

I think I have to mention here that I consider Sergarr to be overly radical and in no way share or condone his views on the crisis.

Now that's just dickish.

Sorry, fixed.

[smjjames]

Now that's just dickish.

UR probably won't find that very funny.