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[MisterMoxxie]

I occasionally like to 'speed-build' a fort. Basically, I start normally, and build a small, self-sustaining base. Once I've got that up and running, and start to get a little bit of net gain in my food/booze stocks, I turn on fastdwarf, and begin construction of some massive, over-the-top fort that I will eventually move my dwarves into. The only other thing I'll do to the beginning base from that point, is expand the food/booze industries to match growing population from immigrants, and build bedrooms so they stay nice and happy. I may begin training a small military squad, but I usually wait for my big base to start that.

Anyways, what are your thoughts on that style of play? Or on fastdwarf in general?

[Aranador]

I have never used fastdwarf.  Once I turned off invaders for 10 game years so I could build my mega fort.  Usually, I leave everything 'normal' because as much as I love building mega forts, I also love trying to build them in the middle of 300 goblins.

[Max™]

I like to take a break from it so I can watch them trundle around instead of ZOOM ZOOM PCHEW PTWANG off of the walls.

It's invaluable though when you're trying to up-ramp remove four whole layers of a 2x2 embark.

[StagnantSoul]

I use it when building a moat, as otherwise it'd just be me sitting there and banging my head off the table, or smoothing the main hall. If I'm clearing out stone because I have a dwarf in a mood, I'll replicate Planepacked and turn fast dwarf on, until I get rid of a ton of stone. 92% of the time, I'm content to watch everything closely, so I can meticulously control my fort. No manager, no work flow, no auto anything. I'm in control, not some machine.

[wierd]

It has some pros and some cons.

The pros are pretty self-explanitory, but the cons arent directly apparent.


I have noticed issues, especially when there are mass item creation/engraving going on.(Causes profound bursts of slowdown) It also seems to do something to pathing that makes dwarves forget how to path until after you save, then quit, then reload. (seen several morons standing around with flashing arrows over their heads who have nothing wrong with them, who just wont move. Save, quit, reload, BOOYA-- beelines for the stockpiles.)

It can be useful, but it has some disadvantages/caveats.

[Max™]

I haven't seen the pathing issues, but I do vertical and multiply interlinked forts exclusively.

[GavJ]

I mean, do whatever is fun for you, but since you asked, I'm not sure I get the point. If you want to build big elaborate structures without actually going through any of the important constraints of dwarf fortress, isn't that basically what minecraft is for? Not only is it way easier and less confusing, but you can view your stuff in 3D afterward!

DF is a simulator of dwarves bumbling around getting into trouble and disrupting your plans and dying horribly, and you're essentially just skipping past everything that is DF in order to achieve a different game that already exists and does a better job of what you seem to want to do.

(Or, alternatively, if you just want to build a fortress for free then play DF in it, I would just skip straight to the auto-dig, auto-build etc. tools in dfHack. Or if you know enough coding, make a minecraft -> DF landscape importer app)

[Max™]

I don't care about any of the people (are they people? I know nothing of the game) in minecraft, I don't care about the worlds, I don't even know how to play it, but I can make a working and stable and awesome looking fort from scratch with nothing but the vanilla game (well, I add the tags to give females beards, but that's pretty vanilla still) in DF. I'd rather have to explain what DF is than just say "oh I'm playing minecraft", and I'd rather talk about DF because it's HILARIOUS!

[GavJ]

^ yes but notice you're specifying vanilla DF (which this thread is not about), and that you're pointing out all the hilarious stuff that happens (which fastdwarf pretty much guarantees doesn't happen).

Obviously I play a lot of dwarf fortress, not (just) minecraft, since I hang out all the time on the DF forums, and it's awesome. But IMO fastdwarf undermines most of the purpose, and you'd get a much smoother yet similar experience with lightly modded minecraft (infinite blocks, flying, minus the stupid monsters) than with fastdwarf.

[StagnantSoul]

Minecraft has it's share of funny as well. Mostly in player error, such as someone trying to make a semi-automatic watermelon farm, and ending up with a fish tank. Or mistaking a sheep for a wolf. Or shooting a wild wolf by accident. But DF is Minecraft's hilarity squared.

[boddha]

I still find some basic things about DF challenging, but the things I can do in my sleep (tunneling in, designating farm plots, designating rooms, setting up bedrooms and barracks) I'll do with fastdwarf. Generally after I have my basic setup that I've done 100 times over done, I'll switch back to the normal speed.
I also admit to using Quickfort for bedrooms only. After spending hours designating 3x3 squares I figured out how to write a AutoHotKey script to do it for me. Then I figured out Quickfort did it better, so I use it now. Meeker Apartments, represent.

[Broseph Stalin]

It's cheating. Sometimes you don't want to play fair, you just want to do something cool and then fastdwarf is a good tool but it's still cheating. I'm trying to break away from it. When I want a big fort on embark I set out with nothing but builders put on fast dwarf, have them do everything, then abandon and reclaim the prebuilt uninhabited fortress. But I find it's very satisfying to build a big elaborate fort over a long period of time, It's irritating to play for several years and still not have your masterpiece achieved but having massive construction going on while the story unfolds makes for nice background drama.

[Tacomagic]

I typically use Fastdwarf when doing SCIENCE!!.  It lets me set up the labratory in short order so I can concentrate more on the actual experiment.

[wierd]

The thing about DF is that no two players approach it exactly the same way--

Some love the spontaneous hilarity that can ensue. Others like the challenge that bumbling idjiots introduce even in "ideal" conditions.

Me, I like systems. LOVE EM.  Systems are great. Minecraft, I never quite got into. It isn't the "Build the elaborate palace then play pretty princess playtime inside!" that appeals to me.

I like building complex structures, with waaaay overthought designs for things, doing my very best to try to "Idiot proof" the ensemble, THEN RELEASE THE DWARVES on it.

For this purpose, a completely inept military, with an obscene wealth trigger (For epic awesome!) combine to cause hilarity of unbridled beauty. Basically, I make the palace, specifically to watch it burn.

The challenge of building the palace isn't in overcoming laziness or constraints on resources or micromanagement-- No, I focus solely on the hypothetical and intrinsic design of the structure, then TEST IT INTO OBLIVION. Consumer Product Testing style!


Fastdwarf, tiletypes, liquids, and pals are very useful for rapidly constructing the major parts of the fortress, then getting it ready for such things.  It's a completely different kind of meta-play style than is typical here on the forums. I love to tinker, and see what I can get away with, using genuinely worthless dwarves that have spent almost all of their time partying and making friends.

But again, these tools are powertools, are totally 3rd party, and ARE NOT SAFE FOR A SERIOUS FORT.  You can bugger things up pretty quick with those three. 

Personally, I'd love to see a plugin for tiletypes and liquids that takes an XML file, and parses it to completely spit out a complete fortress from a pre-made plan. It would greatly improve my meta-gaming experience. (And hey, the things I learn are helpful for people that play the game as it is actually intended, because I see some pretty interesting behaviors, and I make systems specifically around observing and exploiting those behaviors.)

I think the OP was more asking what our "philosophical opinions" are concerning the use of DFHack and pals-- How puritanical are we, as a cross section of the community concerning the use of these tools.  For that, it depends on the mode of gameplay you are intending. Dwarf Fortress does not have a very well defined "Goal"-- As such, it isn't a game unless you, the player, GIVE it one. 

For some, that goal is "Survive as long as possible, dont cheat."  For some, it is "What kind of crazy can you get the game to do?" and yet for others still, it is "How far can I modify this game to make it more realistic? How can I make the simulation more complete?" (some going so far as to create binary patches for the game to fix various mechanics to make them more realistic!), and of course, there are those who love the emergent narratives that the game produces.

Weather or not the use of a powertool that hooks the innards of the game and makes it do loopyloops at the snap of your fingers is "philosophically 'OK' " or not, depends entirely on what objective that you, personally, have set about to accomplish. 

Like I said, I use it as a sandbox with many semi-independent agencies all pulling in different directions to test system designs against (and the more chaotic those agents are, the better!). For me, using these powertools to completely circumvent one of the major mechanics, (To create the system I actually want to test), is practically a necessity.  For somebody that wants to have the full DF experience though, it ruins the game. DF is a miracle of meta-gaming. How you approach it is a very personal thing, once you get to know it and come to love it-- warts and all.

There is no good or bad answer. That's why I answered the way I did about fastdwarf.  It does what it says on the tin, but there are some side effects. Caveat emptor. (and trust me, you are getting a killer bargain both ways for the price of what you are playing with ) I completely sidestepped the "right or wrong" type answer, because there really isn't a frame of reference within which to place such a description-- The player provides that reference. Not the game.

[Max™]

Edit: my god I don't know how I made do without knowing about the less obvious options in tiletypes, honestly if the only tool I could use was the ability re-hide exposed squares I'd be pretty damn happy, as it is so annoying going through and getting things cleaned up but having to remove one part of a wall and reconstruct it later, thus exposing the tiles behind it, just drives me up a wall.

^ yes but notice you're specifying vanilla DF (which this thread is not about), and that you're pointing out all the hilarious stuff that happens (which fastdwarf pretty much guarantees doesn't happen).

Obviously I play a lot of dwarf fortress, not (just) minecraft, since I hang out all the time on the DF forums, and it's awesome. But IMO fastdwarf undermines most of the purpose, and you'd get a much smoother yet similar experience with lightly modded minecraft (infinite blocks, flying, minus the stupid monsters) than with fastdwarf.

Oh, I dunno, I get into all sorts of hijinks with fastdwarf just the same, though I did put a hotkey so I can toggle it on and off. I don't care to look at a half engraved section of fort to appreciate the process of engraving, so just flip it on and get it done if that's what I'm after. While letting them run around doing stuff on their own pace when I'm hanging out and contemplating what to do with that nearby mountain is fun as well.