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[TheDarkStar]

as if he would take it into his own hands rather than what the majority desired.

The hypocrisy is pretty funny.

I freely admit to doing the same thing at the end of D2 against SBC.  Doesn't mean it doesn't set off alarm bells when someone else does it.

Why shouldn't it also apply to you?

[4maskwolf]

as if he would take it into his own hands rather than what the majority desired.

The hypocrisy is pretty funny.

I freely admit to doing the same thing at the end of D2 against SBC.  Doesn't mean it doesn't set off alarm bells when someone else does it.

Why shouldn't it also apply to you?

Are you asking me if I'm suspicious of myself?  Because no, I'm not.  You all have your own metrics to determine scummitude.

[TolyK]

Jim Groovester (1) - Shakerag

Awwwww turn back on the shenanigans display.

< insert "NO" meme here >

MastahCheese was pro-shakerag AND anti-shakerag while the others (Flabort, SBC) are pro-shakerag OR anti-shakerag. I'm not sure about the implications of this though.

The roleflips are not complete and are misleading.

When I inspected flabort he was a CEO ally, not PRO-SHAKERAG OR ANTI-SHAKERAG.

Hey! My information is totally valid! It's not my fault someone's role does...
Oh, right.

[Persus13]

MastahCheese was pro-shakerag AND anti-shakerag while the others (Flabort, SBC) are pro-shakerag OR anti-shakerag. I'm not sure about the implications of this though.

The roleflips are not complete and are misleading.

When I inspected flabort he was a CEO ally, not PRO-SHAKERAG OR ANTI-SHAKERAG.

Did Flabort agree with your inspect? If not, have you considered the possibility you got redirected or that your inspect is unreliable?

[zombie urist]

as if he would take it into his own hands rather than what the majority desired.

The hypocrisy is pretty funny.

I freely admit to doing the same thing at the end of D2 against SBC.  Doesn't mean it doesn't set off alarm bells when someone else does it.

I wasn't even thinking about SBC when I said that.
The funniest thing is that Jim made it very clear he thought Mastahcheese was scummy and I don't think anyone was surprised he used the killing hammer, not to mention that the hammer happens after the lynch which should be a group decision (even though it wasn't). You on the other hand never expressed suspicion towards Jim in the past and decided yourself to kill him without mentioning anything to anyone.

[4maskwolf]

ZU: It wasn't about his hammering of mastahcheese, which was stated ahead of time.  I'll try and find the quote of his that sent up the alarm bells in my head.

Ah, you were referencing my kill?  The difference there is that he controlled the lynch, the town's primary weapon, while I was in possession of a kill and have, technically, no obligation to consult with anyone else before using it.  I'm a vigilante, but also a doctor at the same time.

Persus13: Are you saying that you are given the role of Shakerag or of Anti-Shakerag or both?

[4maskwolf]

I'm going to agree with Jim Groovester here, though I don't have evidence to back it up: the roleflips so far have been misleading at best and downright lies at worst.  My wincon says NOTHING about shakerag/anti-shakerag, and nobody else who has been lynched (IIRC) has claimed a wincon with those words in it.  As such, unless those are our real wincons (which I guess could be the case), those are obfuscation.  Either our wincon in our role pms or our wincon in our roleflips are obfuscation, the real question is which one.

[Jack A T]

I'm calling bullshit on these flips.  I somehow doubt there would be this many side-confused players.

Jack A T, I was informed that you actioned me, and that 'my living space shrunk'. Care to comment?

Cheeetar: One of my powers is the power to interfere with boundary lines.  Its effects: the target learns I targeted them, and their home's area shrinks (I'm not sure what the latter part means).  I decided to test it last night.  (Is that all it did?)  You're a safe target, as people go, having claimed third party.

Oh, you ask what I tried to do to Jim?

I tried to kill him.

I didn't like his tone when it came to his hammer, as if he would take it into his own hands rather than what the majority desired.  I didn't like him making a fuss about me opposing a shorten after I changed the lynch target, as if he just wanted the day over and didn't care who was lynched.  And most of all, he seemed the scummiest to me at the time.  Which is also why I tried to slam the door in his face after my kill didn't work (read: end the day for him).

4maskwolf: Funny how you never questioned him on any of this, or did anything to improve your read and/or get new evidence.  Summary execution without investigation has never been the most pro-town of approaches.  Care to explain?  Also, who did you protect and why?

Jim: How did the killing of SBC by Cheese affect your hammer decision?  If SBC had solidly flipped non-town, would that have had any effect?

PPE: I doubt the wincons in the roleflips are real.  See top of this post: I doubt there are that many people with double-sided single wincons.

[Jim Groovester]

As an upshot of 4maskwolf ending my day early I can use my night actions during this phase. So, thanks, 4maskwolf.

My inspections and kills are night actions, conveniently enough.

What a curious coincidence that you attempt to kill the guy who is known to have inspections and kills at his disposal.

And that makes 4maskwolf trying to kill you worse because? Having kills and inspections at your disposal doesn't mean jack in terms of alignment.

The suggestion is that he's scum because in a normal game kills and inspections are pretty dangerous for the scum team to leave around.

Did Flabort agree with your inspect? If not, have you considered the possibility you got redirected or that your inspect is unreliable?

flabort 'full' claimed on Day 1 here and he flipped here. My inspection agreed with his claim (except for the stuff he didn't claim), and entirely agreed with his flip (the stuff that was revealed anyway).

My inspection is complete and accurate.

The difference there is that he controlled the lynch, the town's primary weapon,

Are you forgetting that on Day 2 Superblackcat was king? There was no majority opinion while he was around. There was also no majority opinion afterward since you had the most votes. How was I supposed to cater to majority opinion in these cases?

On Day 1 I would've used the silver hammer on everybody, including myself, because I know what damage happens when the lynch doesn't happen. But somebody didn't let that happen.

Jim: How did the killing of SBC by Cheese affect your hammer decision?  If SBC had solidly flipped non-town, would that have had any effect?

By the time I found out about it it was past the end of the day and TolyK was waiting on my decision. With a choice of hammering mastahcheese or not hammering, I opted to hammer him.

I might have reconsidered killing him if I had been there in time and Superblackcat flipped scum. But with so little information about the game I might've also just let it through. I was considering doing the same to TheDarkStar when Superblackcat chose him.

[4maskwolf]

Hi Jack.

You're welcome, Jim.  I suppose you can kill me back, if it makes you feel better, just remember that you can't actually eliminate me permanently just yet (it takes three hits to kill me).  I can honestly say that if you were to kill me, nothing would happen to you in backlash, my role isn't set up that way.

Back to Jack.

No, I didn't.  The day was close to ending, I was fine with an SBC lynch, and I didn't solidify my views on the issue until night had already fallen.  I decided that a roleflip was better than nothing and took the shot.  If I shot town, well hell, I'd have some hard explaining to do come morning, but that's the price you pay for being a vigilante.

I guarded Cheeetar from harm last night, though I didn't actually remember why until you reminded me by asking.

Cheeetar: You said that TolyK told you your wincon would become clearer (or something similar to this, basically you'd have more information) come day three.  So, spill the beans.  I kept you alive on the chance you were pro-town, and you have been active and scumhunting more than most of the other players combined.

[4maskwolf]

EBWOP: when I said "SBC lynch" I actually meant "mastahcheese lynch", although I was fine with both: I forgot who we actually ended up lynching yesterday 

[Cheeetar]

You 'kept me alive', 4maskwolf? That's awfully presumptive. I owe you nothing, nor will I help you any more than I would help anybody else. In fact, I've viewed you as scummy throughout Day 2- your attempted murder of Jim Groovester does not help this, given his constructiveness and general towniness.

Your question: No, my wincon is not clearer. The only new information I have is that Flabort is 'the real Shakerag', and this does not help me one bit given that Flabort is dead. Unless we have a medium or somebody who can resurrect around?

Jack A T, I was informed that you actioned me, and that 'my living space shrunk'. Care to comment?

Cheeetar: One of my powers is the power to interfere with boundary lines.  Its effects: the target learns I targeted them, and their home's area shrinks (I'm not sure what the latter part means).  I decided to test it last night.  (Is that all it did?)  You're a safe target, as people go, having claimed third party.

Yep! It probably has some sort of interaction with another role- I don't think I was affected directly at all, or at least I don't seem to be. If I die tonight in suspicious circumstances, y'all can look at Jack suspiciously.

Possibility: KYOSN 13 had Varee having a role of 'bob the builder', and he spent an awful lot of time talking about how he'd build houses for people (like, seriously, that was pretty much 70% of his posts.) Somebody might've submitted a similar role, and your boundary line thingo affects that?

[4maskwolf]

Kept you alive was perhaps a poor way to phrase my protection.  I don't think you owe me anything, nor should you ever.  I did not intend to imply such a thing.

Gimme a sec while I find quotes.

[4maskwolf]

Ah, here's the quote that bugged me, though it was less egregious than I had remembered it to be.

If he picks a target I think is scummy then all's okay. If he picks a target somebody else thinks is scummy then it will depend on how good I think the arguments are against that target. For example, if SBC chooses mastahcheese, then I'd be okay with that. If he chooses 4maskwolf, I wouldn't be okay with that because I don't find Cheeetar's arguments convincing. If he picks anybody I think is probably town then I'll be using the adamantine hammer.

Before the end of the day TolyK asked for a list of which hammer to use on every player in the game, so there's no way SBC can pull a fast one.

It's the use of the word "I" here that raises the alarm bells.  Not "most people": "I".  While I know what he was trying to get across (SBC is not the final word, and he can overturn any bad calls by SBC), this still raised an alert in my brain.  As Cheeetar said in (was it this game?  I can't remember), there are some things that seem scummy that you can't defend.  Perhaps it was a mispeak or unintentional poor phrasing, and I considered that carefully.  However, given the obfuscation of wincons I had no idea what was going on, so I took the shot.  I anticipated, nay, expected, to come under fire from everyone else for it, and accepted it as a part of the action.  I now stand in your judgement.

[Cheeetar]

That's not too scummy to me. While vetoing the lynch would be an issue in that it deprives town of a flip that would be very useful, if Jim is certain the person is town then it would be irresponsible of him to let them die just because it would give us flip information.

Very open to debate though. Other people's opinions?