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[Jim Groovester]

Can you explain this a bit more? I can't quite see your logic here - what is it that makes you think it's a scum gambit rather than a town gambit?

If we examine the facts, the answer to your question arises quite readily.

Firstly, we note that it is an objectively bad idea for anybody who is town to hand daykills out to people they suspect. Like, seriously, why?

Secondly, we note the eagerness of mastahcheese as he waits to see if Toaster will use it or not.

Thirdly, we note the contrived nature of his suspicions of Toaster at the beginning of the game. Toaster answered mastahcheese's question of 'How does actions being public affect your plans?' with 'I have nothing to hide.', to which mastahcheese decides he doesn't trust Toaster and hands him a daykill with an apparent dare to use it.

With these facts combined, we deduce the following: that mastahcheese is waiting for Toaster to use the daykill so that he can vote Toaster for it. It is far likelier, in my opinion, for the player who performed this gambit to be scum, rather than town, and hence my vote on him.

Now that I've looked at those details, Jim seems just a bit suspicious.

Perfunctory additional suspicion. You didn't even wait for my answer.

What DarkStar said.

Could you be lazier?

Have you no response to my points about how bad your gambit is? Or a response or defense of your own?

Lazy lazy lazy.

Also, if you think I'm scum, then why do you want a gun from me?

Because daykills are handy.

For that matter, why would I give you one?

You gave one to Toaster for dumber reasons.

I can easily imagine you just going "Thanks, bruh" and turning around and shooting me in the face, which would hardly be sporting.

That's exactly what would happen.

I'm not meaning to sound mean, but it's amusing to me that you're going "Yes, I want a weapon, you scum."

It is amusing.

Nice talking to ya.

[4maskwolf]

If I had a previous vote, Unvote.

TheDarkStar, why are you defending Mastahcheese?  He just tried to gambit D1 in a situation where it wasn't really a) worth a gambit and b) conclusive enough evidence to condemn the person in question.  Do you think his gambit was worth it, and if so, why?

Jim Groovester: why do you think that had Toaster used popular vote to determine who to kill he would be scum? Do you think he is scummy because he was/is considering doing so? Why?

[Superblackcat]

SuperBlackCat: How would you treat a vote-stealing power if you had it? How would you treat it in another player?

I would probably steal the vote of whoever I didn't think was voting correctly? Basically giving me a +1 and -1 Vote.

[TheDarkStar]

Hi Persus13! Thank you for answering my question. Yeah, my wincon is all sorts of weird- for all I know, it's parallel to a town wincon. I mentioned earlier: TolyK said I would know how to win by the end of Day 3.

What do you think of this whole thing about Mastahcheese's gambit?
Unvote Persus13.

First, why are you defending Jim? Second, why are you directing a question about Mastahcheese's posting to me? Third, why are you asking only me these questions and not mastahcheese, who also had similar points? Fourth, why does it make me suspicious when someone else who I have no control over decides to repeat me ideas?

As for why I don't get Jim's logic, he says that mastahcheese is doing a really dumb gambit, and then he says that it's definitely a dumb scum gambit without any supporting evidence for the second part. He also says mastahcheese is scum without anything backing that up. (Jim: Why?)

Now that I've looked at those details, Jim seems just a bit suspicious.

1) I also think Mastahcheese is suspicious.
2) I'm asking you a question about your own post- I merely noted how suspicious it was for somebody to parrot you so shortly after.
3) Mastahcheese is obligated to defend himself, and he also had a bit more content than your simple request for 'more explanation' on something that seemed pretty simple.
4) Because the scum is a team. If somebody scummy thinks you make a lot of sense, maybe they have a reason other than their conviction in your logic to agree with you?

I would've thought the dumb gambit itself was... kind of explanation enough for suspicion. Certainly, enough to pressure somebody. Why didn't you respond when I asked "Why is it just as or more likely for it to be a town gambit"?

Also: TheDarkStar

1. Your link goes to a question that is more about clarification (like me asking Jim what he meant) than suspicion. The answer to the questions reflects a difference on how you and cheese think the rules are. Why, exactly, do you find mastahcheese suspicous and why aren't you voting him for it?
2. Why does it make me more suspicious suspicious than mastahcheese that my words were repeated? This is what you're implying, given that you're questioning me rather than him about it.
3. What you say is true, but it does not answer my question. Why have you asked mastahcheese no questions? What is it that makes him suspicious to you?
4. Because scum is a team, they would be able to coordinate to avoid awkward situations like that. Also, the most common reason for scum agreeing with someone else is not that they are scum; it's that someone is barking up the wrong tree and the scum want to keep it that way.

Can you explain this a bit more? I can't quite see your logic here - what is it that makes you think it's a scum gambit rather than a town gambit?

If we examine the facts, the answer to your question arises quite readily.

Firstly, we note that it is an objectively bad idea for anybody who is town to hand daykills out to people they suspect. Like, seriously, why?

Secondly, we note the eagerness of mastahcheese as he waits to see if Toaster will use it or not.

Thirdly, we note the contrived nature of his suspicions of Toaster at the beginning of the game. Toaster answered mastahcheese's question of 'How does actions being public affect your plans?' with 'I have nothing to hide.', to which mastahcheese decides he doesn't trust Toaster and hands him a daykill with an apparent dare to use it.

With these facts combined, we deduce the following: that mastahcheese is waiting for Toaster to use the daykill so that he can vote Toaster for it. It is far likelier, in my opinion, for the player who performed this gambit to be scum, rather than town, and hence my vote on him.

Now that I've looked at those details, Jim seems just a bit suspicious.

Perfunctory additional suspicion. You didn't even wait for my answer.

Un-FOS Jim. I get your logic now; however, why haven't you been questioning cheese about this?


PPE:

If I had a previous vote, Unvote.

TheDarkStar, why are you defending Mastahcheese?  He just tried to gambit D1 in a situation where it wasn't really a) worth a gambit and b) conclusive enough evidence to condemn the person in question.  Do you think his gambit was worth it, and if so, why?

Jim Groovester: why do you think that had Toaster used popular vote to determine who to kill he would be scum? Do you think he is scummy because he was/is considering doing so? Why?

I wasn't defending him; I was asking Jim about the reasoning behind a vote. Now that I get why Jim voted that way, it also makes me see cheese as suspicious. I see his gambit as not worth it, though, because of the suspicion it generated. There's a significant hindsight effect there, though.


PPE #2:

SBC: Why wouldn't you take a vote from the person who you thought was scummy? Taking the vote from the person who thinks differently than you would seem to hinder the town's scumhunting efforts by removing the ability of that person to pressure as effectively.

[TheDarkStar]

PPE #2:

SBC: Why wouldn't you take a vote from the person who you thought was scummy? Taking the vote from the person who thinks differently than you would seem to hinder the town's scumhunting efforts by removing the ability of that person to voice their opinions as effectively.

EBWOP

[4maskwolf]

Urk.

I'll figure stuff out in the morning, I'm really fricking tired despite getting 10.5 hours of sleep last night.  Good thing I don't have school tomorrow and now have access to a computer.

[Jack A T]

I've decided to keep my old RVS vote on mastahcheese.  I am troubled by his approach to and attitude in the game, and I find Jim's arguments regarding Cheese's gun gambit convincing (though there is one point I disagree with. Cheese was already voting for Toaster, and was more likely to be waiting to just attack Toaster for using the daykill).

Mastahcheese, aside from a little bit of RVS stuff early on (and even that is minimal), has done almost nothing but respond to questions/attacks and do whatever he's doing to Toaster.  Unless his gambit is counted, he's done nothing to hunt scum.

In fact, he's putting little thought into the game at all.  Take, for instance, the following post:

I figured there would always be someone who is the hammerer, not neccassarily Toaster, but that's who it happens to be.
I didn't get the idea that the theme was only for the day. (I was honestly rather confused by it, and didn't get much out of it other than "public actions" and Toaster being the hammerer)
I assumed actions would always be public because the idea of that failling to stay in effect never crossed my mind.
Clearly, I haven't put a lot of thought into rules like that.

...Also, wait, Toast is unlynchable? I must have missed that part...
Oh wait, he could just adamantine hammer himself, that's how it would-
I'm an idiot. Unvote, because that would do nothing.

Cheese built a plan around mechanics that he thought little about, while missing a mechanic that undermined his entire plan.  Things that should have been obvious have "slipped his mind" or been "missed" by him throughout the game.  I expect those hunting scum to pay rather a bit more attention than mastahcheese has been paying to the game.  Of course, one doesn't need to think about the game when one decides not to scumhunt.

mastahcheese: Who, aside from Toaster, do you think is scummy?  What, in your eyes, have you contributed to the effort to hunt scum?
flabort: What do the role suggestions you have received tell you about the people who suggested them, and what do you think of the suggestions?

Superblackcat: When you're done catching up, please give your top scumpick.

SuperBlackCat: How would you treat a vote-stealing power if you had it? How would you treat it in another player?

I would probably steal the vote of whoever I didn't think was voting correctly? Basically giving me a +1 and -1 Vote.

Interesting.  How incorrect would you have to think a vote is for you to steal it?  Also, I notice you didn't answer the second question.  Do answer it.

RL kicked me in the many vital areas. Face, side and back. Figuratively.
Will get a post in--today. Recuperating from breakdown + resolved issues.

Tiruin: I hope you recover soon and well.  Feel free to take whatever time off you need.  Have something amusing from 2003 to read.

[Vector]

Just dropping in to say I won't be in tonight either. It's still the weekend; I wish I had a chance to do something, but I'm a. studying and b. may have just spoken to my dying grandmother for the last time, so I'm pretty upset.

[Cheeetar]

Sorry to hear it, Vector. Absence in these situations is perfectly understandable.

1. Your link goes to a question that is more about clarification (like me asking Jim what he meant) than suspicion. The answer to the questions reflects a difference on how you and cheese think the rules are. Why, exactly, do you find mastahcheese suspicous and why aren't you voting him for it?
2. Why does it make me more suspicious suspicious than mastahcheese that my words were repeated? This is what you're implying, given that you're questioning me rather than him about it.
3. What you say is true, but it does not answer my question. Why have you asked mastahcheese no questions? What is it that makes him suspicious to you?
4. Because scum is a team, they would be able to coordinate to avoid awkward situations like that. Also, the most common reason for scum agreeing with someone else is not that they are scum; it's that someone is barking up the wrong tree and the scum want to keep it that way.

1. I hoped by answering those questions it would both illuminate how stupid the assumption was- I was willing to give mastahcheese the benefit of the doubt for his somewhat suspicious play at the time (perhaps just made a stupid assumption, everybody makes mistakes etc.) I'm not voting him because I find you more suspicious.
2. You're more suspicious for how you reacted to Jim voting for somebody else- mastahcheese backing you up on it is still suspicious though.
3. I'm pursuing you instead! Sorry buddy. Everything else is already covered by Jim anyway.
4. Eh- WIFOM. (We would've co-ordinated to make it seem like we didn't co-ordinate!)

Un-FOS Jim. I get your logic now; however, why haven't you been questioning cheese about this?

Yeesh. Can you get more timid? An un-FoS is just... meek.

TDS, let me ask you this again, because you've yet to answer it!

What makes you think it's as likely (or more likely) to be a town gambit to hand out free daykills?

[TolyK]

Just a note to all...

Missing from this game due to IRL problems or situations is 110% OK, and I'd like to wish everyone in such a situation either a speedy workaround or just to feel better.

That said, remember that extensions are on a per-player basis, so use liberally.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim Groovester: why do you think that had Toaster used popular vote to determine who to kill he would be scum? Do you think he is scummy because he was/is considering doing so? Why?

Because it unloads the responsibilty of the kill off of him and on to everybody who wanted the second lynch or whatever. If he's scum he's never going to shoot any of his partners even if they're popular choices but he'll be more than happy to shoot somebody who's town if that target has any amount of support. It's a free kill without needing justification.

If he does the kill according to his own reasoning then he's responsible for all that entails, including providing adequate and examinable justification.

I don't think he's scummy for suggesting it. It's a reasonable enough suggestion, one that by initial appearance would be a towny thing to suggest, but it's abusable and that's why I don't like it.

Un-FOS Jim. I get your logic now; however, why haven't you been questioning cheese about this?

I have been...?

Normally when I vote people I expect them to come up with some retort, to which I can reretort back. But I guess mastahcheese decided to be lazy and offload his defense to your questions, so, whatever. I'm cool with keeping my vote on him in that case.

Also, why did you FoS me before even hearing my response? And what do you make of me calling your suspicion perfunctory? To clarify, I'm suggesting that your FoS was only going through the motions. You only did it to make sure you looked like you were scumhunting.

[webadict]

Just a note to all...

Missing from this game due to IRL problems or situations is 110% OK, and I'd like to wish everyone in such a situation either a speedy workaround or just to feel better.

That said, remember that extensions are on a per-player basis, so use liberally.

What about the -1 out of 10 situations where it's not okay?

[TolyK]

>:}

[Shakerag]

Varee has actioned Jack A T and Shakerag.

Jack A T, Shakerag- Did you receive any notification of this, or do you know in any way what Varee did to you?

No.

Busy now.  Post later.  Don't try and bother me on the weekends unless you like pointless activities. 

[Shakerag]

Cheeetar:

Shakerag, to what extent did you expect to be lynched Day 1 when signing up for this game?

In reality, low.  I think from KWN everyone would likely assume that the real goal of the game is not to kill me (as a player). 


Vector:

Shakerag: How do you know that you aren't Toaster's Shakerag? Do you know whose Shakerag you are?

Because I'm not a Shakerag at all?  Unless we want to argue the state of being a Shakerag is a hidden attribute ... 


Varee:

Shakerag: My favorite recipe is Curry with Rice

And I give a shit ... why?  Also, how sure are you on that number of Shakerags in the game you quoted earlier?


mastahcheese:

What the fuck are you talking about?

Don't question my logic, Jim.

And why shouldn't he?


Toaster:

Oh, but you are my Shakerag.  I created you!

Is that a fact?


Jim Groovester

I suspect there are more Shakerags than not.

I suspect that may not be correct.  I may clarify later.