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[Sheb]

Even in 1945, ~50/square Km (Obviously you should not count the jews) is having most of the state vacant. there is enough historic evidence of this which i am totally too lazy to cite here.

Well, I'm too lazy to take you seriously then.

the desire was there, as seen in the unusual hostilities between jews and muslims long prior to the larger influx of jewish immigration. the option to conduct a full scale attack was not available because the british and the french ruled the place.

Source? As I've said, there was tensions between the various constituents of the Ottoman Empire but the Jews' case wasn't unusual. Also, Muslims ruled the place for ~1000 years before the French and British ruled the place, and the Jews were not exterminated.

Also, Fatah, the biggest and most prominent group in the PLO - The word "fatḥ" or "fatah" is used in religious discourse to signify the Islamic expansion in the first centuries of Islamic history –as in Fatḥ al-Sham, the "conquering of the Levant". "Fatah" also has religious significance in that it is the name of the 48th sura (chapter) of the Qu'ran which, according to major Muslim commentators, details the story of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah.

Nice copy-paste from wikipedia. Now, seriously, that's you argument: their acronym evoke conquest, so they're shadow islamists?

You also keep evading the fact that the mostly ashkenazi Jews that immigrated in the 20th centuries were very different from the Sefardi Jews that had lived there for centuries. The Ashkenazi were European colonists, after the shit the locals suffered at the hand of European colonists for the past century, isn't it hard to understand they might be less than thrilled about a new crowd coming in to take their land, no matter the new crowd's religion?

[smjjames]

Sheb, you accidentialy have the second quote as being by me.

[burningpet]

Source? As I've said, there was tensions between the various constituents of the Ottoman Empire but the Jews' case wasn't unusual. Also, Muslims ruled the place for ~1000 years before the French and British ruled the place, and the Jews were not exterminated.

As said, they were not exterminated because the muslims are fine with jews being a minor second grade citizens that pay special tax and subject to the occasional pogrom or massacre. if they thrive to a certain point, they could always go and dwindle their numbers or shift them around.

Also, Fatah, the biggest and most prominent group in the PLO - The word "fatḥ" or "fatah" is used in religious discourse to signify the Islamic expansion in the first centuries of Islamic history –as in Fatḥ al-Sham, the "conquering of the Levant". "Fatah" also has religious significance in that it is the name of the 48th sura (chapter) of the Qu'ran which, according to major Muslim commentators, details the story of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah.

Nice copy-paste from wikipedia. Now, seriously, that's you argument: their acronym evoke conquest, so they're shadow islamists?
[/quote]

And the problem with quoting wikipedia is? if you think its not right, you are more than welcome to change the wikipedia page and provide a reliable source for that change.

And the argument is that its not just conquest, its islamic conquest. and yes, PLO are driven by islamic sentiments and were set up by an islamic desire to rid israel of jews.
 

You also keep evading the fact that the mostly ashkenazi Jews that immigrated in the 20th centuries were very different from the Sefardi Jews that had lived there for centuries. The Ashkenazi were European colonists, after the shit the locals suffered at the hand of European colonists for the past century, isn't it hard to understand they might be less than thrilled about a new crowd coming in to take their land, no matter the new crowd's religion?

I am entirely not sure it was mostly sefardi jews that lived in israel at that time.

[Sheb]

As said, they were not exterminated because the muslims are fine with jews being a minor second grade citizens that pay special tax and subject to the occasional pogrom or massacre. if they thrive to a certain point, they could always go and dwindle their numbers or shift them around.

Why did Muslims create the 1908 constitution that gave every citizen of the Ottoman Empire equal rights and yet waited for 40 years (and the establishment of Israel) to suddenly find out that what they wanted all along was to exterminate the Jews?

And the argument is that its not just conquest, its islamic conquest. and yes, PLO are driven by islamic sentiments and were set up by an islamic desire to rid israel of jews.

At this point I'm just going to assert that Israel was founded by lizardmen looking for a way to kill puppies. We both have source of the same quality (read, none) so our readers can decide.
 

[Lt_Alfred]

PTW this looks interesting.

[Leatra]

Source? As I've said, there was tensions between the various constituents of the Ottoman Empire but the Jews' case wasn't unusual. Also, Muslims ruled the place for ~1000 years before the French and British ruled the place, and the Jews were not exterminated.

As said, they were not exterminated because the muslims are fine with jews being a minor second grade citizens that pay special tax and subject to the occasional pogrom or massacre. if they thrive to a certain point, they could always go and dwindle their numbers or shift them around.

All non-Muslims were exempt from conscription but they had to pay a tax. It wasn't just for Jews. Jews were quite rich and known for their expertise in finance. With the money they brought to Ottoman Empire after getting exiled from Europe, their banks flourished there and dominated the economy of Ottoman Empire.

For the "occasional pogrom or massacre" this is flat-out wrong. A lot of Jews ended up in Ottoman empire after getting a hard treatment in Europe and they didn't get massacred. I have no idea where you got this from. Non-Muslim couldn't join the army or work in many governmental areas (probably all of them but I might be wrong, Google it) but they weren't treated as second-class citizens in the European sense. "Muslims exterminate Jews" also sounds... abstract. Governments operate genocides, not nations or members of a religion as a whole group. We can talk shit about atheism by looking at Stalin with the same logic. I'm really the last guy to defend Ottoman Empire, and its' emperors, to be more specific, but facts are there. After mid 19. century the situation got worse. And massacres really did happen (especially on eastern parts), but not at a level of genocide and certainly not state sponsored. They were also very rare, but strong enough to force many Jews to move to less religious regions in the empire.

edit: TBH I see a lot of misinformation here (this is not directed at anyone), as an ex-Muslim now-Atheist, and even those who are aware of this misinformation do not know enough to prove the misinformed wrong. I don't have the time and not much can change beliefs set in stone in the minds of many even though we can reach information with one click at this age (and I don't care really, misinformation is everywhere and this forum is the least). I do not give a shit about any religion (especially Islam) but at least let's criticize them with facts, not things we hear on oh-so-very-unbiased news sources. Those who are religious, they are people too, and most atheists used to be theists. Hate breeds hate, and all that good stuff.

[Sheb]

Hey, glad to see you again Leatra.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Hey, glad to see you again Leatra.

^

[burningpet]

Source? As I've said, there was tensions between the various constituents of the Ottoman Empire but the Jews' case wasn't unusual. Also, Muslims ruled the place for ~1000 years before the French and British ruled the place, and the Jews were not exterminated.

As said, they were not exterminated because the muslims are fine with jews being a minor second grade citizens that pay special tax and subject to the occasional pogrom or massacre. if they thrive to a certain point, they could always go and dwindle their numbers or shift them around.

All non-Muslims were exempt from conscription but they had to pay a tax. It wasn't just for Jews. Jews were quite rich and known for their expertise in finance. With the money they brought to Ottoman Empire after getting exiled from Europe, their banks flourished there and dominated the economy of Ottoman Empire.

For the "occasional pogrom or massacre" this is flat-out wrong. A lot of Jews ended up in Ottoman empire after getting a hard treatment in Europe and they didn't get massacred. I have no idea where you got this from. Non-Muslim couldn't join the army or work in many governmental areas (probably all of them but I might be wrong, Google it) but they weren't treated as second-class citizens in the European sense. "Muslims exterminate Jews" also sounds... abstract. Governments operate genocides, not nations or members of a religion as a whole group. We can talk shit about atheism by looking at Stalin with the same logic. I'm really the last guy to defend Ottoman Empire, and its' emperors, to be more specific, but facts are there. After mid 19. century the situation got worse. And massacres really did happen (especially on eastern parts), but not at a level of genocide and certainly not state sponsored. They were also very rare, but strong enough to force many Jews to move to less religious regions in the empire.

I dont see how the bad treatment jews got in christian countries says anything about the bad treatment they got in muslim countries.

Also, this just prove that religion was the main motivator for the pogrom and occasional massacre. and yes, a full scale genocide didn't happen (probably because the jews were too thinly spread and too scared to even show themselves as jews), unlike, say, the christians who enjoyed a full scale genocide by the same people that established that constitution sheb praised here.

edit: TBH I see a lot of misinformation here (this is not directed at anyone), as an ex-Muslim now-Atheist, and even those who are aware of this misinformation do not know enough to prove the misinformed wrong. I don't have the time and not much can change beliefs set in stone in the minds of many even though we can reach information with one click at this age (and I don't care really, misinformation is everywhere and this forum is the least). I do not give a shit about any religion (especially Islam) but at least let's criticize them with facts, not things we hear on oh-so-very-unbiased news sources. Those who are religious, they are people too, and most atheists used to be theists. Hate breeds hate, and all that good stuff.

If this does direct to me, then by all means, Point to the misinformation.

At this point I'm just going to assert that Israel was founded by lizardmen looking for a way to kill puppies. We both have source of the same quality (read, none) so our readers can decide.

Just so we're clear, i am going to summarize our arguments in plain simple words, just so anyone and especially you could actually realize what exactly you are saying.

For the record, I agree with everything UrbanGiraffe said (including the part about Arab leader don't giving a shit about Palestinians).

Cryxis, I'll try to stay extra calm and polite then.

Your argument is basically: The arab leaders don't give a shit about the palestinians. The arab leaders set up the PLO because they cared about the palestinians.
My argument is basically: The arab leaders didn't give a shit about the palestinians. The arab leaders set up the PLO because they wanted the jews out of israel.

(Or wait, are you basically arguing that the PLO was not founded by the arab leaders?)

[Sheb]

Jews were actually concentrated in a few large cities of the Empire. Istanbul was only 5% Jewish, but Salonica, the Empire's thrid city (and seat of the revolutionary CUP), was 39% Jewish. In what is now Israel, Jews accounted for 5% of the Ottoman population at the turn of the century, concentrated in Jerusalemn, Tiberias, and Saffad. Jerusalem itself was 40% Jewish.

And again, I'm not discussing than in the 1960's, the Arab leadership wanted the Jews out of Israel. I (and everyone but you) is arguing that they wanted the Jews out of Israel because they (rightly, IMO) saw them as Europeans colonists, not for religious reasons.

[Helgoland]

Point is, they acted against the Jews, not just the European Jews. It's the difference between wanting illegal immigrants out of Europe and just plain drowning all black people.

Don't we have a Middle-East thread for this kind of stuff? I was kinda hoping to learn some Islamic theology here... For example: What is the Islamic concept of salvation? Is there a good deeds/proper faith split like in Christianity? (If these even are meaningful terms in Islam.)

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I would also like to know what Islam believes on judgment day

[TD1]

Yea, I was hoping to learn more about Islam too.

[burningpet]

Jews were actually concentrated in a few large cities of the Empire. Istanbul was only 5% Jewish, but Salonica, the Empire's thrid city (and seat of the revolutionary CUP), was 39% Jewish. In what is now Israel, Jews accounted for 5% of the Ottoman population at the turn of the century, concentrated in Jerusalemn, Tiberias, and Saffad. Jerusalem itself was 40% Jewish.

And again, I'm not discussing than in the 1960's, the Arab leadership wanted the Jews out of Israel. I (and everyone but you) is arguing that they wanted the Jews out of Israel because they (rightly, IMO) saw them as Europeans colonists, not for religious reasons.

Yeah, we will end this discussion, since its not entirely relevant. but calling them "european colonists" is maliciously and intentionally overlooking the fact that they were not colonists, but refugees (the vast majority). if there's one reason for the arab countries to oppose refugees by a systematic genocide, returning to a mostly vacant country, its only because those refugees were jews, not europeans. had they been sunni muslims returning from europe, the arab countries would have done nothing at all to try and stop them. i don't remember full scale assault of 5 countries and countless organizations against the european muslim colonists that came from spain.

[Sheb]

I love when people say we should end the discussion, then try to sneak in one last point.