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[penguinofhonor]

You mean ggamer being LSP?

[ggamer]

shhhhh

noone is supposed to know

[burningpet]

If anything, the fact that the housewife doesn't work and handle the house financing, makes her perfect for grasping the correct value of currency without the emotional baggage that comes with working to get it.

If the housewife, which as strangely implied devalues the currency in her perception by not working to get it, is the one protesting against high grocery prices, i'd sure as hell stop and listen because damn, they must be real high to get someone who usually thinks everything is so cheap to go out and protest.

This analogy fails, no matter how you examine it.

O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: "Thou art not a believer," seeking the chance profits of this life (so that ye may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils. Even thus (as he now is) were ye before; but Allah hath since then been gracious unto you. Therefore take care to discriminate. Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.

It's actually stated multiple times in the Qu'ran that transgression against and targetting of non-Muslims is something that Allah pays especially large attention to. Violence is only acceptable to defend to faith [problem with this statement is its open for very large interpretation, damnit Muhammed!]. If the motivation to your transgression is loot/land, you've already failed the first Allah motivation check. And in Islam you seriously don't want the attention of Allah for transgressions. It's a shame these verses are ignored for the most part.

I believe this is a good quote that many Jews and Muslims would do well to heed and be very aware of..

"Do not confer on me superiority over Moses, for people will be struck unconscious of the day Resurrection and I will be the first to regain consciousness. And behold! There I will see Moses holding one of the pillars of Allah’s Throne. I will wonder whether he has become conscious before me or he has been exempted because of the unconsciousness he experienced on Mount Sinai." (Al-Bukhari, 2411)

Muhammed says so himself that the founder of Judaism will be in heaven before him. That's the amount of respect Muhammed had for Moses's teachings and revelations.

There are similar verses in both the Torah and the Testaments. Then there's also the overtly warmongering bits brought to us by Jesus so the books themselves are really hard to gauge as a whole religion's stance of those who aren't in the denomination. I'll give each major branch its credit for attempting to sneak non-hostility and peaceful relations into their scripture.. But it wasn't their main focus. It never was. The scripture and statement I quote at the top is mostly completely ignored by modern Muslims, as is the 'turn the other cheek' BS in the Testament by many Christians. They'd do very well to read up on what the progenitors of what their religions had to say about the respective other founders and how to act towards eachother.

I really wanted to refrain from doing so, but i guess mr ggamer has inspired me to reply.

Its definitely not only some modern muslims who ignore the "peaceful" verses, the original muslim and his direct successors have done so themselves through their actions. its not something you can pin on relatively new radicalism. its right there from the start of islam.

Btw, since all muslims adhere to the quran and differ on the hadith, quoting stuff from it is not exactly telling. the quran is the universally accepted source material so the quran should be judged. just like i won't judge islam to the good by looking at bahai texts.

And another btw, that verse you did quote from the quran, it refers to those who were already converted to islam. the "ones who offereth you peace" is actually a reference to the "ones who greet you in the islamic salutation", signaling they had converted to islam. so this verse, what it actually says is that when you go on killing disbelievers in the name of allah, don't automatically kill the ones who converted just so you could loot them, investigate whether they are true muslims first.

Don't bother to bring other verses that actually show islam tolerance of other religions or ones that don't imply its ok to kill those who haven't converted yet, i am fully aware of them and i can safely say that most of those verses only appear peaceful when taken out of the larger context and theme and some are actually peaceful. it doesn't matter because reading the quran as a whole with a critical eye and reason expose it for what it is.

[Orange Wizard]

all muslims adhere to the quran

stated multiple times in the Qu'ran that transgression against and targetting of non-Muslims is something that Allah pays especially large attention to

Uh huh.

[TD1]

You have to admit though, as a whole Islam is a fairly violent religion. Of course, it again depends on interpretation, as with Christianity, which is why you have moderate Muslims. But to do this they often ignore other parts of the religion. (Like most Christians.)

Also, am I imagining it or does it say somewhere that what Muhammad says should be taken over what earlier writing says, if they are in conflict? A lot of peaceful, earlier passages may be obsolete if I am indeed remembering correctly.

[penguinofhonor]

ggamer I hope I read your metaphor right because we're kind of invested in that interpretation now

[WillowLuman]

You have to admit though, as a whole Islam is a fairly violent religion. Of course, it again depends on interpretation, as with Christianity, which is why you have moderate Muslims. But to do this they often ignore other parts of the religion. (Like most Christians.)

Also, am I imagining it or does it say somewhere that what Muhammad says should be taken over what earlier writing says, if they are in conflict? A lot of peaceful, earlier passages may be obsolete if I am indeed remembering correctly.

It's only as violent as any other religion. Barring particular small sects or cults, no religion is really inherently violent.

[burningpet]

You have to admit though, as a whole Islam is a fairly violent religion. Of course, it again depends on interpretation, as with Christianity, which is why you have moderate Muslims. But to do this they often ignore other parts of the religion. (Like most Christians.)

Also, am I imagining it or does it say somewhere that what Muhammad says should be taken over what earlier writing says, if they are in conflict? A lot of peaceful, earlier passages may be obsolete if I am indeed remembering correctly.

It's only as violent as any other religion. Barring particular small sects or cults, no religion is really inherently violent.

Nope. As i have shown and can clearly also be seen in the quran and its adherents actions today and throughout history, the quranic islam is inherently violent.

[WillowLuman]

Also, aside from BP arguing against Islam like a suburban housewife argues against high grocery prices, I'm liking how this thread is going.

Ah, I see who you meant now.

Perhaps a better way to say what I mean is that it's no more violent by nature than either of the other two.

[smjjames]

You have to admit though, as a whole Islam is a fairly violent religion. Of course, it again depends on interpretation, as with Christianity, which is why you have moderate Muslims. But to do this they often ignore other parts of the religion. (Like most Christians.)

Also, am I imagining it or does it say somewhere that what Muhammad says should be taken over what earlier writing says, if they are in conflict? A lot of peaceful, earlier passages may be obsolete if I am indeed remembering correctly.

It's only as violent as any other religion. Barring particular small sects or cults, no religion is really inherently violent.

Nope. As i have shown and can clearly also be seen in the quran and its adherents actions today and throughout history, the quranic islam is inherently violent.

Christians have been pretty violent through history as well. Heck, in the bible, God almost seems like a bit of a war God at times.

[Orange Wizard]

"Destroy them utterly", yes. Arguing that a religion is violent because the holy book advocates violence in a given circumstance is kind of... not right.

Incidentally, what ever happened to the stereotype of a gun-toting, bible-bashing 'Murican? Seems pretty violent to me. Hell, Christians in the USA might well have more guns than sodding ISIS.

[Bohandas]

"Destroy them utterly", yes. Arguing that a religion is violent because the holy book advocates violence in a given circumstance is kind of... not right.

Incidentally, what ever happened to the stereotype of a gun-toting, bible-bashing 'Murican? Seems pretty violent to me. Hell, Christians in the USA might well have more guns than sodding ISIS.

But it's not as definitvely an effect as Abrahamic religion in their case because ISIS uses their guns as a tool to advance their particular brand of abrahamic faith but for the American right the guns appear to be an seperate object of worship in and of themselves, and venerated alongside the Lord rather than used to advance his faith

-------------------------
EDIT:
Side Note: Another good bad example of a faithful christian is the insane serial killer Albert Fish, who killed and ate more than nine children because (due to hallucinations) he thought that Saint John the Apostle and several other people from the Bible had told him to.

[Sheb]

Ok, this thread cannot survive BP, I vote we close it.

[Frumple]

But it's not as definitvely an effect as Abrahamic religion in their case because ISIS uses their guns as a tool to advance their particular brand of abrahamic faith but for the American right the guns appear to be an seperate object of worship in and of themselves, and venerated alongside the Lord rather than used to advance his faith

Nah, we've had some pretty high-up nutjobs specifically state that their reason (and, to an extent, the US as a whole) for supporting israel and generally destabilizing the middle-east is due to (their particularly warped) christian beliefs. Pretty sure US christians, veneer of faith-inspired actions or not, have either killed or directly and strongly contributed to the deaths considerably more people than IS-whatever has, over the years. Maybe not in regards to proportion of population/time scale, but by and far away more by raw numbers.

Basically, the gun thing in particular, not so much, but violence and geopolitical asshattery caused and/or strongly influenced by religious belief? Ho yez. States got that shit all up in our grill, we're just a little more on the low-down about it than your average terrorist group.

[burningpet]

Ok, this thread cannot survive BP, I vote we close it.

On what grounds? a different opinion? the discussion is pretty civil given the subject matter. i vote its more than ok to keep this thread open.