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[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

(and this may go against what I have said before so ya I'm changing my mind on something and say what you will of that)

This is super good. Changing your mind about things when you come across things that challenge your beliefs is a great thing to do.

Thanks for not calling me a hypocrite
Hate it when people in the real world say that to me for changing my opinion upon thinking harder about something 

[Playergamer]

Yeah. It's the sad thing about the human brain, we care more about people thinking we're right than actually being correct. Good on you Cryxis.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Yeah. It's the sad thing about the human brain, we care more about people thinking we're right than actually being correct. Good on you Cryxis.

Thanks



Now that that is cleared out

Onto Abrahamic religion discussion/cross referencing each other

How are you supposed to treat sinners as stated by or traditionally done by each religion?

[Tiruin]

You judge them as you judge yourself, pretty much. :v As in, you don't look down upon them or themselves as a whole.

...I think you mean 'greet' and not 'great'?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Actually it was supposed to be "treat"

I despise auto correct

[burningpet]

That obviously depends on the sin and the sinner, but i think that generally speaking, its also greatly depends on the surrounding culture. the country rules are a factor too, but above it is the closer socially accepted and expected behaviour that ultimately determine whether a twenty years old girl gets chopped and burnt to death or simply frowned upon if she decides to have a little fun before marriage.

[Tiruin]

Actually it was supposed to be "treat"

I despise auto correct

Still the same.
Treat them as people. Judge or correct them as people.

[Frumple]

Well, as a decent human being, yes, that's what you're supposed to do. The question wasn't that, though

BP actually mostly got it. Technically speaking, all three of them have "kill the sinner" (often rather horrifically) as part of their scripture when it comes to sinners, to varying extents. Christianity has arguably the most scriptural wiggle-room when it comes to that, iirc, but the message is still there and there has been historic incidences of cultural groups claiming to follow the religion doing some pretty disgusting shit towards perceived sinners.

Of course, most of them have strictly contradictory messages to that directive, too, but hey, what's an abrahamic religious text without contradiction?

The actual measure has indeed been highly cultural. It's actually fairly rare, from what I understand, that any particularly religiously influenced country will execute or torture those that sin in the eyes of the religion in question, or go out to kill non-believers, etc., etc. With the exception of the obvious immoral sins (murder and theft, mostly.), they're generally just kinda' ignored.

As to the supposed aspect, I'll actually bow out on that one. So far as I'm aware, all three of them, roughly speaking, want to talk people in to avoiding sin, but how it's gone about varies heavily enough based on culture, time, denomination, etc. that I wouldn't be terribly comfortable making much of a summation. Mostly because, s'far as I know, there isn't an actual summation to be made, since doctrinal or traditional guidelines for interacting with the sinful vary just that much.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: "Thou art not a believer," seeking the chance profits of this life (so that ye may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils. Even thus (as he now is) were ye before; but Allah hath since then been gracious unto you. Therefore take care to discriminate. Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.

It's actually stated multiple times in the Qu'ran that transgression against and targetting of non-Muslims is something that Allah pays especially large attention to. Violence is only acceptable to defend to faith [problem with this statement is its open for very large interpretation, damnit Muhammed!]. If the motivation to your transgression is loot/land, you've already failed the first Allah motivation check. And in Islam you seriously don't want the attention of Allah for transgressions. It's a shame these verses are ignored for the most part.

I believe this is a good quote that many Jews and Muslims would do well to heed and be very aware of..

"Do not confer on me superiority over Moses, for people will be struck unconscious of the day Resurrection and I will be the first to regain consciousness. And behold! There I will see Moses holding one of the pillars of Allah’s Throne. I will wonder whether he has become conscious before me or he has been exempted because of the unconsciousness he experienced on Mount Sinai." (Al-Bukhari, 2411)

Muhammed says so himself that the founder of Judaism will be in heaven before him. That's the amount of respect Muhammed had for Moses's teachings and revelations.

There are similar verses in both the Torah and the Testaments. Then there's also the overtly warmongering bits brought to us by Jesus

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Basically wanting to encourage open civil war in his own name

so the books themselves are really hard to gauge as a whole religion's stance of those who aren't in the denomination. I'll give each major branch its credit for attempting to sneak non-hostility and peaceful relations into their scripture.. But it wasn't their main focus. It never was. The scripture and statement I quote at the top is mostly completely ignored by modern Muslims, as is the 'turn the other cheek' BS in the Testament by many Christians. They'd do very well to read up on what the progenitors of what their religions had to say about the respective other founders and how to act towards eachother.

[Tiruin]

I've to add that terminology is also a...factor in the misinterpretation.  And human interpretation too.

Like in the Bible, the idea of 'Hate' is used, though the problem is assuming and interpreting 'hate' as [one_definite_interpretation], given that it differs in usage/feeling/meaning despite the word being the same. There was a verse on God hating Esau, yet that kind of hate does not reflect what is commonly described as hate (wrath/anger). Or the idea of 'lust' which can be interpreted and even expanded past where it is limited.

...Among many other things. >_< Sorry for my messy wording.

[ggamer]

@Frumple (about religious dogma being divisive)

Unfortunately this is more true than people think. There are a lot of people in the church that talk mad shit about basically everybody that isn't them (up to and including people in the church(!!)). It gets to the point where church members are oh-so-happy to condemn the actions of sinners in the community, but when it comes time to actually go and witness to them they've got several excuses. Luckily enough the church is starting to realize this, and there's a movement against this sort of thing (starting with the college SS classes, funnily enough).

Also, aside from BP arguing against Islam like a suburban housewife argues against high grocery prices, I'm liking how this thread is going.

[burningpet]

Not sure i understand the analogy, probably because i am not an american. isn't  the housewife the one to know about the high grocery prices?

[penguinofhonor]

Maybe the point is that the housewife doesn't know the value of currency because she doesn't work to earn it, but acts like she knows what prices should be? I'm an American and that's my best guess.

[Orange Wizard]

That sounds about right, I guess.

[Sheb]

My guess would be that it's LSP being LSP.