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Author Topic: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs  (Read 30809 times)

Sheb

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #270 on: November 04, 2014, 09:12:07 am »

Oh, calm reasoning probably won't either. It's not about changing his opinion, it's about making sure his twisted view of history isn't the only one represented here and making sure that people don't fall for it.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #271 on: November 04, 2014, 09:20:01 am »

I didn't say it had to be calm reasoning
just not insulting

Also yes, the truth should be represented properly when we are speaking on historic records that we do have record of. Good record of that is, not possibly tainted or falsified records (yes i know religious documents can be considered this and that's why this stuff is up for debate).
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Bohandas

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #272 on: November 04, 2014, 09:23:53 am »

Okay, the country was createdmore or less out of nowhere, but the people there are the people that lived there. It's not like in 1948 a bunch of European decided to get a new state after some pretty horrible shit happened to them and kicked the Arab population out.

Don't bring race into it unnecessarily. Nationality works as well and is less controversial. They kicked the British population out.
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Helgoland

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #273 on: November 04, 2014, 11:31:55 am »

Sure, most of them weren't expelled at gunpoints, they fled after the stories of massacre like the Deir Yassin massacre reached them. And they were not waiting for "Muslims to exterminate the Jews", but for things to calm down, like refugees everywhere.

Muslims and Jews had been living side by side in Palestine for hundred of years, with occasional flare-up, but mostly in peace. That is, until Israel showed up.
Uh, Sheb, maybe it's just me being German, but you are missing two vital points: One, the refugees were encouraged to leave by the Arab leaders, being promised a swift return after the Glorious Arab Armies would drive the Jews into the sea. That's a big factor in addition to persecution (not debating that) by the Jews. And two, a crapload of Jews came to Israel from Arab countries because of persecution there. It was more of a population swab, and certainly not the Jews cleansing the land of Arabs. And two, 'mostly in peace' is a thoroughly false description of life in Palestine before 1948 - go read up on the Mufti of Jerusalem and his SS membership, or the chummy relationship between ex-Nazis (and other antisemitic Europeans) and Arab anti-Zionists during the events leading to Israel#s declaration of independence.

Not trying to change your opinion, but mostly making sure a balanced (as well as I can manage) view is presented here.
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burningpet

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #274 on: November 04, 2014, 12:32:39 pm »

What racist propaganda?

We are speaking about religion here. religion is not a race.

This really fits into the middle east thread.

Ok, after a very serious study and number crunching that took me almost all of my day. i am retracting the immigration argument. it seems that while the muslims did have unusually high population growth rate for the time and reliable data is absent, even if we take the reported muslim growth and deduct the expected natural growth that was in this region at the time, we are left with nigh insignificant numbers. so, yeah, in this department, i must admit i was wrong. most of them were not newly immigrated.

Israel was mostly vacant when jews started to emigrate to it and even in 1945 when we started coming in masses. hell, it was mostly vacant in the mid 50's when more people lived in it than in 1945. a simple population density check should suffice.

The Irgun was organized and set up precisely because of the muslims hostility against the jews. anyway, it can't be a proof that the hostility wasn't religious in nature. on the contrary.

Yeah, the muslims fled because they were afraid. war is messy and scary, and? were they forced out? the vast majority of them weren't. a lot fled even before the war started. those that fled after that massacre, didn't do it because of that specific massacre or because the jews scared them, they done so because they finally figured out they weren't going to win so easily and the arab leaders scared them to do so. did they hope for the muslims to win over the jews? only a handful of probably insane people would argue that the fleeting muslims secretly hoped for the jews to win. hence a logical conclusion: probably ~90% left by their own decision and wished for the musilms to win over the jews so they could return after the war and since we established the arab secretary general and many others argued that they will exterminate the jews, winning over the jews is basically, well, exterminating the jews. there are numerous admissions that the arab leaders greatly encouraged the muslims to flee with some citing it as some of their biggest errors.

Of course muslim and jews lived side by side. with the occasion massacre, pogrom, special tax and continual depriving of equal rights for jews.
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Sheb

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #275 on: November 04, 2014, 01:12:30 pm »

I'd like sources about those leaders urging the Muslims to flee. Not that I don't believe it, I'm just curious about their motivations.

Now, I did a simple population density check, and I got about 60 hab/sq km. Countries with less population density than that include the US, Belarus and Estonia. Ireland is at 64 hab/sq km. I wouldn't call them "mostly vacant", especially if we keep in mind that in 1945 there were just less people around.

Regarding pre-1948 tensions, yeah, there were Jewish-Muslims clashes. Just as you had Muslim-Christian, Christian-Jewish, Kurdish-Turkish, Turkish-Greek, Armenian-Kurdish etc etc clashes. The Ottoman Empire was never entirely stable. But as far as I know, Muslims-Jewish clashes weren't worse than the others. Anyway, my point stand that if the Muslim's goals was to exterminate the Jews in Palestine, they did a piss-poor job of it, since it was still full of Jews after over a thousand year of Muslim rule.

Also, another point of interest is that while non-Muslims lacked several right until the 1908 revolution, and indeed had to pay an extra tax (in exchange for not being conscripted), many of them, Jews and Christian alike, held a foreign passport, which under the Article of Capitulation exempted them from taxes and made them beyond the reach of Ottoman justice, understandably brewing resentment.

Helgoland: I'm not disputing those facts, the Arabs had their part of responsabilities too. But no one on these boards is claiming they were entirely innocent people being attacked by the evil Jews that wanted to exterminate them, so I don't feel the need to delve on those points.

burningpet: If the resentment is reigious in nature, how do you explain that a) the opposition to Israel was led by secular organization like the PLO until the 1980's and b) The desire to "drive the Jews into the sea" only arrived after a large influc of European jews?
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burningpet

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #276 on: November 04, 2014, 02:11:26 pm »

Jews started to emigrate back to israel in 1890-1903. 17 hab/sq km.
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smjjames

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #277 on: November 04, 2014, 02:15:12 pm »

Jews started to emigrate back to israel in 1890-1903. 17 hab/sq km.

Israel as the state that exists now, didn't exist in 1890-1903, and you're dodging the questions.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 02:23:35 pm by smjjames »
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #278 on: November 04, 2014, 02:37:02 pm »

The thing is, BP, Jews (both cultural and religious) aren't innocent by default. Just because you've been persecuted doesn't mean that you're a saint and can get away with massacres.

Speaking of which, is it just me or has Israel been QUICKLY falling out of favour with most countries recently?

EDIT: removed redundancy. Tiredness and a headache makes a great combination ::)

I hear part of it is the bombing of Palestinian hospitals and schools and such
if that's the case, first Palestine has been randomly throwing bombs and artillery into Israel, two Israel is trying to take out the buildings where the shells are coming from/stored at, three they do warning shots to tell the civies ¨Hey we're bombing the crap out of this building soon


If that isn't the big problem then nevermind, I don't much care about middle east stuff that has been happening recently
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Sheb

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #279 on: November 04, 2014, 02:44:10 pm »

How do you get 17 habitant per square kilometer? 1.700.000/~2600 km² is way more than that. Even if you only count the muslim population (~1000000), you get around 40 habitant/ km².
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #280 on: November 04, 2014, 02:44:39 pm »


And yeah, this can probably go in the Middle Eastern thread.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #281 on: November 04, 2014, 02:46:23 pm »

ok i dont have time to read so PM me if this thread gets out of hand

I trust someone to do it and I will stop it as quick as I can
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Sheb

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #282 on: November 04, 2014, 02:58:13 pm »

For the record, I agree with everything UrbanGiraffe said (including the part about Arab leader don't giving a shit about Palestinians).

Cryxis, I'll try to stay extra calm and polite then.
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smjjames

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #283 on: November 04, 2014, 03:03:31 pm »

@urbangiraffe: So, in other words, the result of imperial meddling, among a load of other things.
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burningpet

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Re: Abrahamic Religions; Discussion, Cross-reference, and Beliefs
« Reply #284 on: November 04, 2014, 04:12:35 pm »

How do you get 17 habitant per square kilometer? 1.700.000/~2600 km² is way more than that. Even if you only count the muslim population (~1000000), you get around 40 habitant/ km².

As said, when jews started to migrate and settle to the mostly vacant israel, it was ~18 hab/ square KM

Even in 1945, ~50/square Km (Obviously you should not count the jews) is having most of the state vacant. there is enough historic evidence of this which i am totally too lazy to cite here.

Jews started to emigrate back to israel in 1890-1903. 17 hab/sq km.

Israel as the state that exists now, didn't exist in 1890-1903, and you're dodging the questions.

So? it didn't exist in 1945 and 1947 as well. what's your point?

the desire was there, as seen in the unusual hostilities between jews and muslims long prior to the larger influx of jewish immigration. the option to conduct a full scale attack was not available because the british and the french ruled the place.

Also, evidently, Muslims have no problems with jews so long they pay their special taxes, bow down and take the occasional pogrom/massacre peacefully.

PLO: Irrelevant. An organization that was set up with the sole purpose of forming a palestinian state would naturally need to be a nationalistic organization and not a religious one if it wants to be taken seriously by the world. what country would recognize an organization that calls itself the "The jews destroyers"? you can't accept remarks like "Arab countries didn't give a damn about palestinians" and think that the PLO, which was established by the arab countries, was only set up so the poor palestinians could have a state as if it had nothing to do with wanting to throw the jews.

the religious difference between jews and muslims was and still is the root of this conflict.

Also, Fatah, the biggest and most prominent group in the PLO - The word "fatḥ" or "fatah" is used in religious discourse to signify the Islamic expansion in the first centuries of Islamic history –as in Fatḥ al-Sham, the "conquering of the Levant". "Fatah" also has religious significance in that it is the name of the 48th sura (chapter) of the Qu'ran which, according to major Muslim commentators, details the story of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah.

This is a clear case of religion that evoke/use nationalism, not nationalism that evoke/use religion.
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