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[Worldmaster27]

:O

I'm not sure what to add, beyond the obvious - this is fantastic.

[bahihs]

I'm a little confused about how this game is actually played, is it supposed to be a forum version of fortress mode? (The detailed farming model suggests this, but then you talk about dungeons and such).

Also how do you plan to mitigate the time (IRL) spent on actions? I would imagine the more detailed the system becomes, the more time it takes to do anything (and especially with a forum game; simple combat could take months). There are also many things to keep track of (on both sides, GM and Player) you mention, hunger, stamina, happiness, nutrition, for the player, and I imagine much more for the GM (one of the reasons most systems favor "one and done" solutions is that they don't need to be kept track of). This level of detail is astonishing and admirable (especially that you already have it all in your head), but I feel like you'd need a computer to keep everything running, at which point the line between forum game and computer game becomes thin.

Of course I could be wrong (I probably am), and you have probably already considered these issues and have solutions for them (or counter-measures). And I am looking forward to seeing them.

[Truean]

Thank you all. I appreciate the encouragement.

That is one of the best trees I have ever seen

Genuinely. If all the art is up to that standard...

Thank you. It is not, but I'd like it to be up to that standard. Time, resources, not enough of them. Old school graphics techniques, labor intensive stuff, complex and detailed stuff, I have a lot of that.

Pretty close to what this looks like:
http://ak6.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/4945277/preview/stock-footage-aerial-helicopter-view-of-mountain-forest-and-trees.jpg

Yeah, in terms of perspective, I'm focusing on top down, which is why I've been putting so much focus on transparent leaves.

I might, MIGHT, be able to actually make something like the tree in that picture. It's a matter of making leaf clusters only out of pine needles. It can be done, and I might do it, but that would be very difficult with what I'm working with.

I appreciate your compliments. The assumptions are inapplicable, and the confusion inevitable at this stage. Complex numbers exist, but only I will see them. Play is qualitative, text generating, and fairly fast paced, not quantitative. I've already addressed the very rough game implementation schedule here. Play is also a long, long way off.

Original setting and system, unlearn what you know. My game system, fictional setting, content creation / resolution system, and novel setting use none of it. You see a fraction of my plan. I understand you want answers, but things aren't ready for that yet.

A small group of invited players may be given some statistics and qualitative measures, but will rarely, if ever, number crunch. Descriptions of settings, problems, resources, etc will be given. Players will consider that along with possible actions their characters are trained in, etc, and come up with solutions (without knowing the detailed numbers I'm using). Players will have been taught beforehand how to generate text responses that may lead to various outcomes. That's the oversimplified version. Rinse and repeat.

Construction, resource generation, resource management, and combat are all slated to be part of this. Multiple sites (at the same time) and travel between them without leashes to just one area are part of this. Diplomacy between locations, factions, nations, etc exists. Site based problems ("dungeons if you prefer) are part of this. Reference and teaching materials are being created, as are maps, etc. I've already written several books in this setting. While I'm glad there is interest in this already, play is a long way off for this, as I've got tons of ideas, but presenting them in an understandable way, will take a lot of work. To me, all the calculations are pretty easy, but try explaining it without written guides.... Work. In. Progress.

With the select group of players I'm thinking of inviting, the understanding that it is early dev, and my organization, things won't take nearly as long as you think they will. Keep in mind most real life fights last between 30 seconds and a minute at most....

[Heron TSG]

I don't know how I've never seen this thread. That's one fine tree!

[bahihs]

Complex numbers exist, but only I will see them. Play is qualitative, text generating, and fairly fast paced, not quantitative....

A small group of invited players may be given some statistics and qualitative measures, but will rarely, if ever, number crunch. Descriptions of settings, problems, resources, etc will be given. Players will consider that along with possible actions their characters are trained in, etc, and come up with solutions (without knowing the detailed numbers I'm using). Players will have been taught beforehand how to generate text responses that may lead to various outcomes. That's the oversimplified version. Rinse and repeat...

Construction, resource generation, resource management, and combat are all slated to be part of this. Multiple sites (at the same time) and travel between them without leashes to just one area are part of this. Diplomacy between locations, factions, nations, etc exists. Site based problems ("dungeons if you prefer) are part of this. Reference and teaching materials are being created, as are maps, etc. I've already written several books in this setting....To me, all the calculations are pretty easy, but try explaining it without written guides.... Work. In. Progress.

Alright, so this means that the number-crunching will be the burden of the GM much more than the players? But the way you've put it, it seems like this system can really only be run by you (or again, a computer). So if there is minimal number crunching for the players and everything is text-based in the end, why do you (the GM) need the numbers? Is it to "accurately" simulate the consequences of player actions? So, then its not really game, so much as it is a simulation (like Dwarf Fortress)?

I also don't think its a matter of whether the calculations are easy (it's not like you're using calculus or linear algebra or complex statistical models) but whether they are tedious. With a forum game there is a great deal of flexibility in this matter (since the calculations don't have to be done on the spot) but again it seems like this system can only be run by you (which I guess is the point?).

I think if you can pull this off, it will be amazing. And actually, I don't doubt that you can (you've put in this much thought and work already...) but how much of all this could be replaced by an imaginative GM with a good reference to the game world? That is to say, if all this simulation and crunch is behind the scenes is it really all that different (from the players perspective) from a GM using his imagination and common sense and storytelling to resolve situations?

[Truean]

Post Contents:

a.) Reply to Bahihs
b.) More Tree stuff

Alright, so this means that the number-crunching will be the burden of the GM much more than the players? But the way you've put it, it seems like this system can really only be run by you (or again, a computer). So if there is minimal number crunching for the players and everything is text-based in the end, why do you (the GM) need the numbers? Is it to "accurately" simulate the consequences of player actions? So, then its not really game, so much as it is a simulation (like Dwarf Fortress)?

I also don't think its a matter of whether the calculations are easy (it's not like you're using calculus or linear algebra or complex statistical models) but whether they are tedious. With a forum game there is a great deal of flexibility in this matter (since the calculations don't have to be done on the spot) but again it seems like this system can only be run by you (which I guess is the point?).

I think if you can pull this off, it will be amazing. And actually, I don't doubt that you can (you've put in this much thought and work already...) but how much of all this could be replaced by an imaginative GM with a good reference to the game world? That is to say, if all this simulation and crunch is behind the scenes is it really all that different (from the players perspective) from a GM using his imagination and common sense and storytelling to resolve situations?

It's really best that I don't answer this because what was said and how it was said frankly pissed me off. In sum, "why bother doing what you've done?" / automate even your hobbies.... This widespread theory saddens me greatly. For all I know, this is some kid or innocent third party who may not have meant it or it could be seen as me overreacting. I don't care, because I'm trying to be a better person who focuses efforts on constructive things instead of being mad.

I'm going to ignore everything and focus on trees, peaceful, trees.


b.) More Tree stuff.
Well, I saw this:

Pretty close to what this looks like:
http://ak6.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/4945277/preview/stock-footage-aerial-helicopter-view-of-mountain-forest-and-trees.jpg

I thought, I should really try an evergreen. I know I'll want one for conifer forests and people might like it. The needles were hard, but I think worth it overall. As usual, my shadowing is messy, but I don't care if you don't.


This took me a fair deal of time because my "leaf cluster" (here "needle cluster?") method was kind of off. I produced a lot of little branch things with pine needles on them. The texture was also odd, but I'm satisfied with it. It's not the same as the picture Moghjubar posted, but that's really pretty complicated if you look at it and break it down. The tree or plant there, or plants, would be very difficult, and I'm not sure I'm up to it yet. Honestly, I can't figure out where that thing's trunk (trunks?) are. The one I did is a nicer and simpler model around a central trunk.

 I figured, start small and work your way up to that maybe. From there, try other tree types and don't rush yourself yet. You've also got to think about pine cones and pine needles discarded on the forest floor (and they'd have to be different from the ones on the tree or it just wouldn't visually work). It's kind of Christmas tree ish, but there are real trees like that out there. Now that I have the building blocks I'll try other similar models as well so I have more than just one "evergreen" tree sprite" and perhaps some other species of trees as well. Otherwise things are going to look awfully similar, and that doesn't sound as fun.

It's a lot of work, but I'm hoping it's worth it. I know there are other, better, 3D rendered models out there, but like mine better.

[bahihs]

Post Contents:

a.) Reply to Bahihs
b.) More Tree stuff

Alright, so this means that the number-crunching will be the burden of the GM much more than the players? But the way you've put it, it seems like this system can really only be run by you (or again, a computer). So if there is minimal number crunching for the players and everything is text-based in the end, why do you (the GM) need the numbers? Is it to "accurately" simulate the consequences of player actions? So, then its not really game, so much as it is a simulation (like Dwarf Fortress)?

I also don't think its a matter of whether the calculations are easy (it's not like you're using calculus or linear algebra or complex statistical models) but whether they are tedious. With a forum game there is a great deal of flexibility in this matter (since the calculations don't have to be done on the spot) but again it seems like this system can only be run by you (which I guess is the point?).

I think if you can pull this off, it will be amazing. And actually, I don't doubt that you can (you've put in this much thought and work already...) but how much of all this could be replaced by an imaginative GM with a good reference to the game world? That is to say, if all this simulation and crunch is behind the scenes is it really all that different (from the players perspective) from a GM using his imagination and common sense and storytelling to resolve situations?

It's really best that I don't answer this because what was said and how it was said frankly pissed me off. In sum, "why bother doing what you've done?" / automate even your hobbies.... This widespread theory saddens me greatly. For all I know, this is some kid or innocent third party who may not have meant it or it could be seen as me overreacting. I don't care, because I'm trying to be a better person who focuses efforts on constructive things instead of being mad.

I'm going to ignore everything and focus on trees, peaceful, trees.

Leave it to me to piss people off with my questions lol. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or insulting I was genuinely asking your thoughts on the matter. I have GMed a number of systems (homebrew and otherwise in IRL)  myself and I was asking those questions from that perspective.

I just wanted to know why you went with a number heavy approach and whether you believed that it was the only way to achieve what your going for (or whether mortals like myself could approach a similar level with imagination alone)

Anyway I didn't mean to get you mad and I apologize. I'll just let you do your thing. gl.

[Truean]

Progress Report:

1.) Art assets.

I've been spending a lot of time on textures and sprites using those textures. Namely, the leaf, branch, and combined tree sprites are tangible image products. Additional sprites are in process, and also several types and sizes of sprites are planned. Finally, my big thing is transparency in a leaf layer, so all of them are going to have to have transparencies applied (fairly large task).

The end goal is large scale and detailed maps that can be subdivided into player vision representation maps (only what the players see), with blacked out areas for non vision. Zoom outs of these maps will provide "area maps." Access will have to be restricted (otherwise it's kinda cheating because that's advanced knowledge for the player that the character has no way of knowing).

This will provide a backdrop for characters to apply their skills to make changes to the world (map). Interior spaces will be separate maps. Customization will have to have some sprite limitation, but there's no real way around that.

2.) I've also made some more tweaks to world information. Small changes, but eventually they will add up. (sadly this is a spare time thing and it's solo so.... ) Eventually this will lead to a full test universe (subset of the larger one) written down. IP protection is already done, but that's not what you're interested in.

3.) Informational reference. Again, players will not initially have characters, it will be ISG (Internet suggestion game) where players can learn how to do characters and earn one. That said, providing ease of access to character stats is critical. A fairly novel concept will be access to character motivations, which will feel odd to people. Character motivations should guide player actions, which, yes restricts players.

Example: A given Dwarven character is from Bronze Bane Hold, and will have been influenced by it's culture and religion. Culture and religion have certain benefits and detriments. Here, the character will have cultural preferences for organizations like guilds (because that place has a culture centered around them. The character will have grown up in a society of abundance and production of goods, and may be saddened if they don't have that. They may have religious preferences for buildings like temples. They might wanna do their rituals and recreational bathing facilities (Think Roman Bath). They can live without it, but would be much happier with it than without and the notion of changing at least part of their environment to or finding an environment like this is a character motivation. Emphasis upon abundance.

Compare and contrast to some Dwarf from Shine Steel Hold. They are a military culture with quite sparse focus on material matters and a major focus on the military. They will probably want to drill or practice. They may be a member of "The Shine" or "The Bulwarks" and that could matter. If they build something, they will probably want some emphasis upon defense and military.

Conversely, Cold summit hold is more spread out and somewhat rural, focusing less on structure and more on individual freedom with self sufficency. Generally, dwarves from Cold Summit Hold don't favor large guilds and rather focus upon sustainability and self sufficiency (mostly). They like spread out underground territories. (There's more but I haven't written it down yet).


You can see how these act not as a script to be followed, but rather guidelines to help a player chose things their character would, in broad strokes. Characters here aren't in our world and they shouldn't act like it, otherwise you have a disposable toon like any other MMORPG.

[Truean]

So this was supposed to be an evergreen thing and this is what I ended up with:


Don't ask me what kind it is but aiming for one of those needley ... needly ... needle y ones, the ones with needles, you know with the longer needles and the .... Well I'm not sure how to explain it.

[Urist Arrhenius]

What you drew has needles. What you wanted has needles. I'd say you're right on track.

[Truean]

TOC Post
1.) Address (basic)
2.) Meaning, dynamics, and examples
3.) Hunting

1.) Address (basic)
Ok, so as you can see I'm working on some art stuff in the background and that's not something that's going to be posted every day though.... Takes time.

2.) Meaning, dynamics, and examples
Filling in details on bland terrain blobs on maps started this. Great beginning, terrible end. The detail needs meaning, or else one big bland thing becomes several smaller bland things. That's not improvement, but rather complication. Here, "meaning" is static (one and done throw away), or dynamic (reusable, re-playable, changing). Also "meaning is about what, why, are in a place and when, how, and what, can be done with, against, or around them. Players and characters will ask "what can I do here," "does this matter," and "does this make sense?"

In application, "dynamic" means as and after you clear things, they change and react. Current occupants move and act; future ones may arrive and act. Things and groups from other areas may react to things happening on a given site. "Static" sucks; "dynamic" is preferred.

Sometimes applied to dungeons, "dynamic" should be applied to everything. Structures and shelters are reusable. Meadows, forests, swamps, etc, can provide resources or have other uses. These are all things to consider before any maps are made.

Even a meadow, and areas around and within it can be given a stat sheet, that can be scouted out. Fertility was discussed in farming; random plant and animal lists are useful in foraging/hunting. Vertical subsections (underground) areas also benefit from stat blocks, especially if sealed off from the surface.

And that's all just the natural (ish) portions.... Cities and settlements can have their own stuff going on. Diplomacy comes to mind, and is important. Can a group walk through another's land without being tolled, robbed, attacked, imprisoned or killed? Good to know and relevant to the game....

3.) Simplified Hunting (Simplified version, as I have to find the file)

So as stated before, hunting is the most integral and complicated of skills. Fairness is huge in hunting, because it is resource generating deadly combat. The stakes are that something dies, and wrongful death is always bad. Hunting is divided into [Placeholder X] steps.

1.) Locating and closing

Locating and closing can be done several ways: Trapping/Baiting, Tracking/Stalking, or waiting/ambushing

1.a.) Trapping and bating:
While bait can be used as lures in other applications, trapping is its own thing and usually requires some kind of bait. Here, the trap's design and quality matter, as does the skill of the person deploying it and where it is deployed.

1.b.) Tracking and Stalking.
Here, you come to the prey. It is a perception based skill opposition against the environment and how adapted the type of animals in the area are to hiding in it (camouflage, etc). Weather may also play a roll (better or worse tracks and indicators).

1.c.) Waiting and Ambushing.
Here, you wait for the prey to come to you and may involve bait/lures. This is closer to a basic stealth roll, because the character is hiding in a static location. The animal has to have some reason to come around and that can be something like a bait/lure, and/or a game trail or plentiful food area for the animal.

2.) Awareness or Surprise

This determines if the prey knows it is being hunted. This is not just a stealth vs. detection roll. The prey doesn't have to directly sense (see, smell, hear, etc), that it is being hunted, but sometimes you just know.... Something might not feel right, the hair on the back of the neck might stand up, etc. The animal will become aware and much more difficult to hunt, or it will not. Aware animals may employ countermeasures, take flight, fight, or hide.

3.) Attack

Now, this can be a literal attack from a character, and probably with a weapon, or it can be made by a trap. Traps can be immobilizing, incapacitating, damaging, and/or lethal. (incapacitating traps may use heavy tar, drugs/poison, dyes to make detection easier, etc).

From there, the animal may fall immediately or attempt to run (wounded or not). This may require more tracking if the prey flees. "Awareness of being hunted" is a state that wears off over time and circumstances. If the prey dies, butchery is possible, as are related skills.
 
Notes: Unlike normal combat, all hunting always uses all three steps. Normal combat may require stealth determinations, but normal combat does not have the possibility of "Awareness of being Hunted," which grants considerable bonuses, etc. Most prey are used to being prey and have adapted to avoid being eaten if they can help it (otherwise how do the deer survive). This and other measures are fairness matters.

[Truean]

Note: Latest tree screwed up. Sorry. Coming though.

Player experience:

Evident Issue: confusion over player experience. Reference general oversimplified outline plan.

Clarification of individualized player experience cycle:

1.) Known information review. Reference stat blocks, lists, prior descriptions etc. Review what is already known.

2.) Receive additional input information: descriptions, dialog, materials, items, etc. Possibly GM list suggested actions relayed through NPC characters.

3.) Vote or Direct (with subcategories).

i.) If full character control not earned yet, then vote as ISG, perhaps with weighted vote from prior good acting.

ii.) If full character control earned, then direct character (as usual playing the character, not yourself).

a.) Personal immediate actions: Actions taken effecting the character in the moment and immediate area they are in. Move, attack, employ skill, speak, etc.

b.) Impersonal immediate actions: Command actions taken effecting others around the character and under their control or influence or persuasion. Order soldiers to position, ride horse, drive wagon, have scout survey area, etc. 

c.) Distance actions: Most difficult to explain action type. Concerns 3rd party off site matters "back at home" or in another area. Examples include home base matters, deployed trade caravan and ambassador matters, deployed troops where character not present but still in command. Distance actions are usually hard to deal with as radio, telephone or other long distance communication is not available. Still material that individuals at home were given orders. Relevant to how much is produced (trade, input materials, etc) or how much of a project is done, work in progress, or not done.

4.) Opposed resolution check made:
Characters act and the world reacts. We see which one comes out ahead and by how much and what happens. Attribute, skill, circumstance and other relevant facts totaled and opposed against one another.

5.) Hear results of check as generated outcome.

6.) Record any changes

Rinse Repeat.

Yes it's more complicated but that's the basic gist anyhow.

[Truean]

Shadowing is all wrong. There looks like there's only one level of height growing anything, or maybe two. I still like it, but ... Eh, who knows

[Truean]

Hi. So I've recently drastically cut by my involvement online as a result of several not nice things happening with people sending me some ... not nice mail, shall we say. I don't want to get into it. But, needless to say this has put my more artistic endeavors on hold. I don't know what the future of this may or may not be.

All the same, I still enjoy making harmless little virtual settings, and I'd like to share some of those with friends. Hopefully nobody is going to be upset by showing things like the stuff already posted here (trees, rooms, terrain, etc). Here's hoping.

At this point, I just need some graphical representations for my imagination like this:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145111.msg6022926#msg6022926

I'm considering making another room in a different setting, namely a far more dwarven one. I'm considering a bedroom to start with and perhaps I'll build off of that. Work in progress but here's the very general idea of the details so far:

Generally
A.) Bed (Clearly for a bedroom). I'm considering the properties, uses, and positioning of this.
a.) Occupancy: Single or dual, not the largest bed perhaps, but more than just a single occupancy bunk. Possibly large enough for a pet?
b.) Coverings: Underground, so extreme heat is not as much of an issue. If anything, some heat retention might be nice. Available materials would either be luxury imports (surface materials) or underground availabilities. Underground tuber fabric, leather, etc are possible choices. Though this is again dependent upon the occupant (last time I had a hunter with fur fabrics).
c.) Bedding itself: Matress? Straw? Waterbed? Airbed? Springs? Shock absorbent material?
d.) Frame (if applicable): Stone? Wood? Metal? What texture does it display? Any patterns?
e.) Access: Single or two side access (up against a wall, or embedded in it)? All side access with nothing touching it/blocking access? Raised? Lowered? Floor height? Raised off floor slightly?
f.) Built ins: Storage capacity? (under bed with or without built in drawers/cabinets). Shelves? Alcoves? Etc?
g.) Decorations and appearance: Headboard? Footboard? Siderails? Exposed beams? Canopy? Rails, or solid boards/material?
h.) Etc?

B.) General Furnishing Considerations:
a.) Individual, set, theme limited theme: Common themes? (material, texture/grain, color/shade, style, images). Individualized? (no shared attributes). Limited themes or variances (some differences)
b.) Illumination: or lackthereof
c.) Walls: Any vertical surface and/or support
d.) Floors: Any horizontal surface offering support or persons or furnishings
e.) Architectural Features: Pillars, columns, beams, rafters, supports, arches, vaults, alcoves, etc.

C.) Functional Areas:
a.) Sleeping Area: (See also bed) Includes bed and surrounding areas,
b.) Sitting Areas: May include chairs, seats, benches, sofas/couches, and perhaps accompanying tables/flat surfaces.
c.) Storage Areas: may include cabinets, shelving, chests, compartments, etc, and their access/storage. Closets?
d.) Open Areas: To avoid clutter and provide ease of access. May have floor coverings, polishes, patterns engravings etc.
e.) Decorative Areas: May include wall spaces, display cases/shelving/alcoves/etc. Trophies, art, engraving, and viewing/appreciation. May also include windows and accompanying views.
f.) Desk Areas: Semi or actual office. Writing/viewing surfaces.
g.) Grooming Areas: May include mirrors, cleaning, and bathing features.
h.) Dispensing Areas: May include water or other beverage, perhaps including drink vessel storage.

D.) Entrances/Exits
a.) Where they lead:
b.) Any locks or restrictions:
c.) Any defensive measures:

I have no idea on a time frame.

[Pencil_Art]

Hello. It's great to see you are still on.