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[Max™]

Do you consider the frame of an automobile a car? What about a steering wheel?

Likely most of us would identify the frame by itself as closest to being a car, but it is useless with no engine, wheels, seats, or controls.

A beard looks upon a dwarf in much the same way, a head by itself can only move by rolling or tongue dragging, which gets the beard all gunked up.

[Bumber]

One is really dead only when all who know him have died.

That's deep, too deep... horrifying screams come from the darkness below!

At least it doesn't raaaaaaaaain down heeeeeeeeere!

[TruePikachu]

One is really dead only when all who know him have died.

That's deep, too deep... horrifying screams come from the darkness below!

At least it doesn't raaaaaaaaain down heeeeeeeeere!

Oh my. It was inevitable.

I doubt there are many differences wrt being dead now compared to .34, so someone like UristDaVinci might have some hard Science on it.

I disagree that the upper body handles factions, etc. because those are part of the soul. Maybe looking at that other thread as a guide, resurrect a body amputee and check the things the upper body is supposably responsible for.

[pisskop]

only the main part (with an UPPERBODY attached) will remain loyal to its original faction. Syndromes can also be specified within this tag.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Interaction_token

Also that thread where they would thrall werewolves and then bisect them.

[TruePikachu]

only the main part (with an UPPERBODY attached) will remain loyal to its original faction. Syndromes can also be specified within this tag.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Interaction_token

Also that thread where they would thrall werewolves and then bisect them.

Sounds like the main part is the head, since it has the UPPERBODY attached. And the soul is apparently linked to the head (which would handle the relations).

The Unit object, the "soul", stores different things than the Item object, the corpse/head/upper body which has been seperated from the soul. One of the things is the relations to factions; it only makes sense for the soul to store them.

I'm not familiar with reanimation to make any assertions about how it operates, but I'd think that it operates by making new Units which use the body part as the main (and only) part.

[pisskop]

only the main part (with an UPPERBODY attached) will remain loyal to its original faction. Syndromes can also be specified within this tag.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Interaction_token

Also that thread where they would thrall werewolves and then bisect them.

Sounds like the main part is the head, since it has the UPPERBODY attached

No.  No it doesnt.  Heads are neither required nor that special.  They house the brain, and the eyes, and eventually the nose will smell; that is all.

[TruePikachu]

only the main part (with an UPPERBODY attached) will remain loyal to its original faction. Syndromes can also be specified within this tag.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Interaction_token

Also that thread where they would thrall werewolves and then bisect them.

Sounds like the main part is the head, since it has the UPPERBODY attached

No.  No it doesnt

This is why we need someone familar with debugging DF (as in with a debugger or DFHack) to make confirmations as to whatever is going on

[pisskop]

Fair enough.

[Max™]

Well, from my Nish experiments I can say that the soul is definitely not tied to the body, but reanimated corpses which are complete enough that they would show up as "Nish Shamelorbam, Zombie Miner" or whatever can't be reanimated while the Ghostly Nish or un-undead Nish has been brought back to life.

Having the skeletons and mangled corpses sitting in a reanimating portion of the map for looooooooong periods of time results in nothing, because the zombie Nish can't exist while the soul is claimed, sadly.

I didn't try to chop her hair or hands off before reanimating... _yet

[pisskop]

Well, from my Nish experiments I can say that the soul is definitely not tied to the body, but reanimated corpses which are complete enough that they would show up as "Nish Shamelorbam, Zombie Miner" or whatever can't be reanimated while the Ghostly Nish or un-undead Nish has been brought back to life.

Having the skeletons and mangled corpses sitting in a reanimating portion of the map for looooooooong periods of time results in nothing, because the zombie Nish can't exist while the soul is claimed, sadly.

I didn't try to chop her hair or hands off before reanimating... _yet

DF hacking a body back to life isnt quite the same as sciencing it.  Or rather DFHack/=/interactions.  I think we're confusing a soul attribute for a soul.  There is no such thing as a whole, inseparable soul in DF.  You have attributes . . .


Here, because Id just as soon we get past these misconceptions:

-Zombie names are just that,name.  afaik.

-The soul isnt one complete piece you can mail about.  Its a collection of data that is interchangeable.  dwarves are data, Data with a name.  You can even change the name.  Real meta . . .

-The UB retains the faction info.  Why,idk.  Most likely because it is the most vital piece, the cornerstone, of all bodies,

Spoiler: wiki (click to show/hide)

Flags the body part as being able to wear upper body clothing like coats, breastplates etc. If an upper body is chopped off, the creature dies. Multiple upperbody parts aren't redundant. All default creatures with bodies have the upperbody as the root of the body tree, making it impossible to chop off.

-No other body part is as necessary, with the Lower body coming close.  The head is literally only important because of the brain.  If you didnt have the brain nobody would die from having it chopped off.  Except by the obvious blood loss and perhaps the spine, but the spine is also a distinct, moddable part.

-None of this information is particularly new, its just not organized for easy access.  Why, idk.


And to settle this, here is an adventure Im playing.  I gave dwarves two interactions, a revive and necromancy interaction, shown here

Spoiler: interaction (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]


[INTERACTION:REVIVE]
[I_TARGET:A:CORPSE]
[IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_ITEM]
[IT_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[IT_REQUIRES:FIT_FOR_RESURRECTION]
[IT_FORBIDDEN:NOT_LIVING]
[IT_MANUAL_INPUT:corpse]
[I_EFFECT:RESURRECT]
[IE_TARGET:A]
[IE_IMMEDIATE]


[INTERACTION:NECROMANCY]
[I_TARGET:A:CORPSE]
[IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_ITEM]
[IT_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[IT_REQUIRES:FIT_FOR_ANIMATION]
[IT_FORBIDDEN:NOT_LIVING]
[IT_MANUAL_INPUT:corpse and body parts]
[I_EFFECT:ANIMATE]
[IE_TARGET:A]
[IE_IMMEDIATE]
[IE_ARENA_NAME:corpse]
[SYNDROME]


and here

Spoiler: creature (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:REVIVE]
[CDI:ADV_NAME:Spit]
[CDI:USAGE_HINT:NEGATIVE_SOCIAL_RESPONSE]
[CDI:USAGE_HINT:TORMENT]
[CDI:BP_REQUIRED:BY_CATEGORY:MOUTH]
[CDI:MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SPIT:LIQUID_GLOB]
[CDI:VERB:spit:spits:NA]
[CDI:TARGET:C:LINE_OF_SIGHT]
[CDI:TARGET_RANGE:C:15]
[CDI:MAX_TARGET_NUMBER:C:1]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:30]

[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:NECROMANCY]
[CDI:ADV_NAME:Spit]
[CDI:USAGE_HINT:NEGATIVE_SOCIAL_RESPONSE]
[CDI:USAGE_HINT:TORMENT]
[CDI:BP_REQUIRED:BY_CATEGORY:MOUTH]
[CDI:MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SPIT:LIQUID_GLOB]
[CDI:VERB:spit:spits:NA]
[CDI:TARGET:C:LINE_OF_SIGHT]
[CDI:TARGET_RANGE:C:15]
[CDI:MAX_TARGET_NUMBER:C:1]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:30]


As you can see, its just the spit interaction with a new id stapled on.

This world is a standard gen, stopped when I got tired of waiting on it.  And I start killing.

Spoiler: Names are just names (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Alive for a click (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: If I added myself in some night creature tokens he'd be my ally (click to show/hide)

Here is the save:
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9971

There is no such thing as an intact, inseparable soul in DF, nor is it impossible to raise a zombie with the same name as a living dwarf.  That headless dwarf will die again soon, but for this instance is alive and well.

 

[Max™]

Well, having the body sit in a reanimating biome for multiple seasons in the exact same square where I've had numerous other creatures reanimate seems improbable, as I've got other creatures reanimating, have cleared them to make sure it isn't due to there being too many things on the map, all I can figure is that due to Nish being alive and running around her corpse won't reanimate as well, and similarly her ghost won't get up while she is.

Edit: though apparently her ghost can get credit for kills she made... but yeah, I don't mean that the science was reanimating her, that's well known, I meant figuring out what the game does with regards to having dorfs interacting with their own reanimated corpses, wielding artifacts made from their bones, being charged for their own murders, and so forth. A lot wasn't really unknown, but it was to me, and it was fun to figure out since I initially didn't expect the skeleton to be left behind at all, heck, I wasn't even completely sure that toggling the flags off would get me a normal behaving dorf rather than a weird zombie.

[pisskop]

My apologies.  I dont want to stop your experimenting.

I have a bit to learn too, and I know the way zombies reanimate this version could well be different than before.


---

I can tell you that IDs tend to be unique, and the game doesnt like two entities sharing the same ID.

[Max™]

It's all good, but yeah, they're definitely not how I expected, I was certain her body would reanimate, but it was intact completely so I figured that the upper body was still tagged as needing her soul, which was already taken.

Have you gotten duplicated dorfs before, has anyone?

Saw your edit, guess that means no on the duped dorfs, I was expecting amazingness to take place if it happened, like everyone turning into Nish, or their boiling points suddenly changing and everyone explodes or freezes or both, but nope, she just went back to work, admiring the weapon rack made out of her bones with everyone else.

[Bohandas]

Well, it's all about where you consider your body to start from.

Obviously [CENSORED]

[Bogus]

No other body part is as necessary, with the Lower body coming close.  The head is literally only important because of the brain.  If you didnt have the brain nobody would die from having it chopped off.  Except by the obvious blood loss and perhaps the spine, but the spine is also a distinct, moddable part.

afaik this isnt true. creatures without brains, spine, or blood, will die from having their head chopped off. maybe this has to do with the default humanoid body implementation somehow?