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[webadict]

Pelsk resisted the urge to scratch his face. The makeup, which was probably unnecessary given how often humans and aliens communicate, would have to be reapplied, and that was a waste of Pelsk's time. He entered the communications room and prepared a message for the aliens.

"Greetings. I am Commander Pelsk of Cruarea, member of the United Earth Expeditionary Council. This ship has entered our solar system, heavily damaged, and we did not retaliate. Our dealings with ships similar to your escorts have ended in unnecessary skirmishes, so we cannot hand over a ship in its current state without good reasoning. We must ensure that the ship is returned properly and accurately.

"How do we know that this ship belongs to you?"

I must disagree with it being too strong actually. As it stands, it is perhaps the single weakest trait in the game.  It just scales rapidly because I have been doing several turns doing nothing else but researching, in order to optimize the Patents cashflow, in order to have it be worth something.

In order to get my current income of +23, I spend
- 2 Traits
- 15 Actions
- 393 credits

In addition : Return on Investment takes 10 turns (20 if you don't include one minute into the future)


For comparison :

- A single Colony ship costs 50 credits, and returns 15 per turn, with research, this'll likely be upgraded. 
     - Return on Investment : 3 turns

- Friends in low places nets 30 credits, for no cost whatsoever.
     - In order to be better than Friends in low places, I thus need to invest 600 credits  (300 thanks to 1 minute into the future)
         - Assuming an actual 100 credit per turn investement (which is a lot, even with one minute into the future ), Patents is only a better choice after a full 27 turns(Being only cash positive after 21 turns), on the unlikely assumption that Friend in Low places player doesn't have any benefit from the research that is being done, or is investing nothing in colonial stuff.


- Exploration + Colonization
     - Income : 15 credits
     - Cost:
          - Colony ship : 50
          - Scanning : (40 credits spend for the discovery of 7 habitable planets)
                 - Alternative : (40 credits for the discovery of 2 habitable planets in areas with no alien traces whatsoever)
          - Scout vessels : If my calculations are correct, 60 credits of scout and other vessels were lost during exploration
     - Return of investement
          - All exploration : 4 turns
          - Safe exploration : 6 turns

So honestly, the patents need to be doubled, not halved. Because at this moment, other players make more money of the tech I developed but they use in 3 turns as I would make of the patents in 20 turns.

I can do graphs if you like.

You're also using a scaling ability. Scaling abilities aren't meant to produce income right away. You don't have to continually funnel money into your Trait to keep making money. Your Trait is powerful on multiple levels:

Your Trait synergizes with the fact that you are performing an action that doesn't hinder you and being paid for it. In essence, you will end up further ahead on your Trait than any other Trait, provided that you keep using it. You are right that you'll end up paying more in the short run, but scaling Traits should have a downside to them. If your Trait allowed you to gain equally with another flat bonus, then your Trait outscales it significantly.

You can choose to discontinue putting money into your Trait. This doesn't stop you from gaining money from it. You're technically investing in a Trait with actions. In the end, you will gain more than a flat bonus.

You don't have to perform any extra actions to gain more money. If you were performing actions that were otherwise hindering you, you might have a good point, but other players are also researching. You are just granted better bonuses for researching, so you research more. That seems like a good offset for choosing to do that.

Overall, you'll get a huge bonus in what amounts to 16 turns. You can probably get a higher bonus than Friends in Low Places in 6 turns, but you'll have to pay more to get it.

It seems a fair trade, honestly. If no one wanted to research, maybe. If you were unable to colonize planets, maybe. But, you're not. You just get extra bonuses for playing the same as anyone else. Your Trait is slow to build, but eventually it will outscale all other Traits. And you don't even have to play like a Scientist if you don't want to. You'll still scale. If you ever stopped researching, then you'd still keep your bonus. No one can be certain Earth will even last forever. Think about that for a second.

[10ebbor10]

You're also using a scaling ability. Scaling abilities aren't meant to produce income right away. You don't have to continually funnel money into your Trait to keep making money. Your Trait is powerful on multiple levels:

The very basic mechanics of constructing colonies are a scaling mechanic. One that is immediately available, and, as I already said, produces profit in 4-6 turns. A solution for which I have chosen 2 dedicated traits should not be worse than one one can get without any effort whatsoever.

Your Trait synergizes with the fact that you are performing an action that doesn't hinder you and being paid for it. In essence, you will end up further ahead on your Trait than any other Trait, provided that you keep using it. You are right that you'll end up paying more in the short run, but scaling Traits should have a downside to them. If your Trait allowed you to gain equally with another flat bonus, then your Trait outscales it significantly.

How does researching not hinder me?

Had I chosen not to research, I would have likely had a much more significant fleet, and maybe an additional colony. Just compare your post and mine. You have +109 income, I have 88. With your research and funds you're capable of building a colony every other turn, at least, resulting in a much larger income growth than I have.

Then again, that is not what this discussion is about. The problem here is that I chose 2 synergizing traits, and now am being actively punished for that decision.

You can choose to discontinue putting money into your Trait. This doesn't stop you from gaining money from it. You're technically investing in a Trait with actions. In the end, you will gain more than a flat bonus.

Yes, but by utilizing those actions for research, I can neither explore nor colonize, which as I showed earlier, is far more lucrative.

You don't have to perform any extra actions to gain more money. If you were performing actions that were otherwise hindering you, you might have a good point, but other players are also researching. You are just granted better bonuses for researching, so you research more. That seems like a good offset for choosing to do that.

In total, and even with my cost reduction, I spend nearly twice as much as everyone else. Researching is a serious drawback. 

Overall, you'll get a huge bonus in what amounts to 16 turns. You can probably get a higher bonus than Friends in Low Places in 6 turns, but you'll have to pay more to get it.

Not really. In 16 turns the entire thing still won't be cash-positive. It'll take at least 21 before I get any sort of profit out of it, especially with the planned nerf.

It seems a fair trade, honestly. If no one wanted to research, maybe. If you were unable to colonize planets, maybe. But, you're not. You just get extra bonuses for playing the same as anyone else. Your Trait is slow to build, but eventually it will outscale all other Traits. And you don't even have to play like a Scientist if you don't want to. You'll still scale. If you ever stopped researching, then you'd still keep your bonus. No one can be certain Earth will even last forever. Think about that for a second.

I kind of am. Hell, your slightly overpowered 10% faster speeds could ensure that I would never be able to colonize anything. You're nice enough not to abuse it, (too much), but it's a massive advantage.

And as I said before, and going to say again and again, colonizing is going to be better, for much likely forever.  Besides, if Earth is attacked, remember that I'm the one with no fleet, and nowhere to go. Because researching is a huge drain.

As long as the cost for a single colony remains under 300 credits, my perk is effectively worthless. And that assumes that colonies won't get better over time, which they're guaranteed to do.

[webadict]

You bring up a good point. I suppose it is unfair that your Traits don't fully cooperate. However, that doesn't mean they're opposed. You are still paying less for Research, which is something all players do, and you still make money off any Research you do. The real downside is the number of actions you can take per turn, but this is merely a downside for your style of play. You refuse to make any other action besides researching, which is a fairly reclusive action. You'd play your Trait better if you made Research a secondary priority, since you make a profit on your Research after 20 turns for every Research you make. It would be better if you got a free Research order per Turn or perhaps something to adjust that, but that isn't my decision. It was a strong Trait that paid off a lot in a short manner.

The thing is, you're not limited from colonizing planets or making ships. These are things you can do right now. Oddly enough, I bet you we'd even save some planets for you if you asked. I may play a character that is a bit of a douchebag, but that's just for fun. You can explore too. You are right, I make more income than you, but I chose a Trait that does exactly that. I have more income now for less income later. Tiruin did the same thing, but on a bigger scale. Just start building stuff now.

I think your Trait is brokenly strong, even at what it is now, but not for the same reasons as you. The real issue is that later on, tech costs will be ridiculous, so our 30 income now? You could get that in a couple tech. The issue is you took the Trait too early to be as useful. Your Trait scales, and it will always scale. You could just invest in tech and production now and prepare, and it might work, but it seems like you're starting several turns behind by doing that. But once 100 credit techs or so start showing up, one research grants you 5 credits per turn. You should be using your cheap research and scaling income to start slightly behind and build a steady lead. And you should avoid comparing incomes, because your income is only 21 credits off of mine. And that gap will shrink each turn, especially if you actually build ships. Your income will increase. It might not be completely cash positive, but your Trait is literally spending money to make money. When do you feel that should be cash positive? To me, that feels like a long-term investment. 20 turns to cash positive? Yeah, that does kinda suck. But you are performing an action everyone else does too. You are choosing to focus incredibly on it. Maybe 5% is too small? But it doesn't feel like that's justified in your evidence.

You act like you can't do anything. But you haven't tried to do anything. Oddly enough, exploring and colonizing aren't actions. Building ships is an action. Researching is an action. Those are limited. Exploring and colonizing are movements of ships. If you build ships, these actions are limited only by that number. We Research and build ships. Why are you only limited to Research? Is your character a scientist? Then do scientist things! Send your ships to investigate the Alien gunship! Investigate alien planets! There's one with a weird decaying thing I just found out. My guys aren't scientists, maybe this is your area of expertise?

You are also right in the Speed is a strong Trait. That's why I took it. It is strong in a fairly subtle way. My character is like that. I don't abuse it because I'd be kicked out right away, plus it doesn't fit my character to do that. I will, however, use it to make players play the game. If RulerOfNothing doesn't want to play with other people, he can be a literal Ruler of Nothing. If you find this a misuse of my Trait or misplaying my character, I can take another Trait or make a different demand, but I'd like to think that I play my character in a way that is fitting and fair. In fact, the only reason I'm making the demand is so that he doesn't get booted at the decade mark. I have little doubt he'll be kicked out if he doesn't start reacting to events.

Sorry for the typos. I wrote this on my phone.

[10ebbor10]

You bring up a good point. I suppose it is unfair that your Traits don't fully cooperate. However, that doesn't mean they're opposed.You are still paying less for Research, which is something all players do, and you still make money off any Research you do.

It kind of does mean that they fully clash once you take in the fact that gains are rounded down. This means I'll be loosing a lot of money.

The real downside is the number of actions you can take per turn, but this is merely a downside for your style of play. You refuse to make any other action besides researching, which is a fairly reclusive action.

I have in fact, made several other actions. They just don't tend to be noticed much.

Only thing I haven't done is building a massive fleet. 

You'd play your Trait better if you made Research a secondary priority, since you make a profit on your Research after 20 turns for every Research you make. It would be better if you got a free Research order per Turn or perhaps something to adjust that, but that isn't my decision. It was a strong Trait that paid off a lot in a short manner.

I wouldn't play my Trait better, but I would play the game better.

But at that point, there's no point in lugging the trait around. Might as well dump it and pick something else, which is what I might end up doing.

The thing is, you're not limited from colonizing planets or making ships. These are things you can do right now. Oddly enough, I bet you we'd even save some planets for you if you asked. I may play a character that is a bit of a douchebag, but that's just for fun. You can explore too. You are right, I make more income than you, but I chose a Trait that does exactly that. I have more income now for less income later. Tiruin did the same thing, but on a bigger scale. Just start building stuff now.

Yup, I could ignore the trait. But what is then the point of taking it in the first place.

I think your Trait is brokenly strong, even at what it is now, but not for the same reasons as you. The real issue is that later on, tech costs will be ridiculous, so our 30 income now? You could get that in a couple tech. The issue is you took the Trait too early to be as useful. Your Trait scales, and it will always scale. You could just invest in tech and production now and prepare, and it might work, but it seems like you're starting several turns behind by doing that. But once 100 credit techs or so start showing up, one research grants you 5 credits per turn.

The basic Return on Investment mechanics don't change however. Likely, by the time we start seeing 200 credit techs, you probably have manned colonies which probably produce 30 to 40 credits or more per turn.  (Besides, that's an issue with 5 minutes into the future, not with )

So sure, your non-scaling trait doesn't scale, but the basic colonizing game mechanic does. And when I need to get 2 traits to ineffectively replicate the functioning of an already existent tech, what is the point in doing it?

Over scaling traits spoken, the first rate Industry is likely going to be OP quite soon anyway, being , amongst others , a 50% cost reduction of colonization vehicles (colonizing ships have no weaponry, so how much weaponry they have doesn't matter. They either never enter battle, or are destroyed. Besides, the enemy has tons of insta-kill missiles.).

You should be using your cheap research and scaling income to start slightly behind and build a steady lead. And you should avoid comparing incomes, because your income is only 21 credits off of mine. And that gap will shrink each turn, especially if you actually build ships. Your income will increase. It might not be completely cash positive, but your Trait is literally spending money to make money.

21 credits is more than 25% however.

Every game mechanic is spending money to make money. But still, all you are saying now is that I could ignore the trait, and then I wouldn't be worse of if I hadn't chosen it. That's not really a point, is it?

When do you feel that should be cash positive? To me, that feels like a long-term investment. 20 turns to cash positive? Yeah, that does kinda suck. But you are performing an action everyone else does too. You are choosing to focus incredibly on it. Maybe 5% is too small? But it doesn't feel like that's justified in your evidence.

You act like you can't do anything. But you haven't tried to do anything. Oddly enough, exploring and colonizing aren't actions. Building ships is an action. Researching is an action. Those are limited. Exploring and colonizing are movements of ships. If you build ships, these actions are limited only by that number. We Research and build ships. Why are you only limited to Research? Is your character a scientist? Then do scientist things! Send your ships to investigate the Alien gunship! Investigate alien planets! There's one with a weird decaying thing I just found out. My guys aren't scientists, maybe this is your area of expertise?

Exploring and colonizing are both limited actions however. Exploring limited by money, Colonizing by access to ships, and money.

Once again however, your point is still the same. Ignore the trait, do something else. I mean, that is a solution, but then I should not have chosen it.


Assuming your suggestion, Ie, barely any research, I can calculate further results. Assume one player picks friends in low places, while the other picks patents, both spend 50 credits on research, increasing by 5 credits per turn.

At that point my trait will only be a better choice after 17 turns.

Now, if we add the effects of 5 minutes into the future to that, the pay-off only happens after 30 turns.

Honestly, your short term trait should not last that long.

A comparison with the Authoritarian trait is even more damning.

[webadict]

That's not ignoring the Trait. That's using it effectively. You get your money back after a certain time, but it's not being focused. Similarly, I don't focus on one thing either. You're right in that your Traits have an annoying interaction. This wouldn't be an issue if you had infinite research actions, I'm sure. But you effectively tuned a Trait to double the power of another Trait. No other Trait does that at all.

The rounding issue is annoying, I'll give you that. Perhaps that is something you could try to rectify. My suggestion would be to make it round up (Always get at least something even at .05). But that would probably be the only gain you'd get from the debate. It'd be a gain from the dual Traits. The issue with scaling bonuses is how hard they can break a game. Especially limitless ones. I would worry about that as a GM too.

I suppose I didn't mean to say you do nothing. You are interacting with the game. However, you might not want to focus solely on researching... unless that's what you want to do? I guess I'm not sure.

Yes, First Rate Industry might make colonizing broken. It might also not. Colonizable planets aren't unlimited. It could have the negative bonus not apply to Colonizers (Colonizers need a certain minimum health).

But, really, how long should it take to be cash positive? Just remember that double that turn is full return of investment. 15 turns? 10 turns? What is the limitations of your Trait? Does it scale infinitely? When should it pass another Trait? Compare your Trait to another Trait, since those will be unique to each player, and then show the math.

I think 12-14 turns is okay for cash positive. That means about 7-8% return. Round up each tech cost to Patents. Cap it at half of total income.

This avoids a lot of the issues a GM could have. It is annoying, but not blatantly overpowered. At max, you could have double income over another player, but it would take a while to get there. But, you did pay to get there.

For First Rate Industry, you could make sure Colonizers can't be reduced.

There's no real fixes for Speed. It is sort of a do or don't Trait. I don't plan to ever colonize another player's planet, but it is possible do to the Trait. That also seems punishable by immediate retribution from the council or the GM. I've used the power twice (once on accident), and it shall only be used to make sure others cooperate. I like Speed because it is never useless. Someone always needs to be somewhere quicker than how they currently move. If you have ideas, feel free to discuss them.

[RulerOfNothing]

Alright then.
Orders:
Colonise Olympus/Beta.
Build an Erinyes, then send it to Olympus.
Recall the scout at ChooseSoldierNobody to Earth.

"So, Fletcher, I know we don't see much of each other, but I'm just sending you this message to let you know that there's some alien ships in our solar system. I know, startling news, right? You see, the council would actually prefer that you joined us in our duties of deciding things related to aliens.

"I understand that there are planets out there that need exploring, so, I figured I'd give you a hand with that. I'll explore them all for you. My ships are faster, and they'll make it there before you, even if you leave first. See? I've just decided that all of your planets are now mine. You apparently must've missed that council meeting, since you haven't left your office since being appointed to the council.

"So, since I'm not one to operate in good faith, I'll take two of your planets and split them with you when you decide that council meetings are actually in your job description. If you still decide that these council meetings are too burdensome, feel free to resign. If you are somehow unable to resign, I'll gladly wait until your performance review to explain the situation to them.

"So, what do you say, Fletch? You gonna help us out?"

(If as you say we may not hold onto Earth indefinitely, does this mean you are going to help with Larger Ship research? It is after all necessary to build manned colonizer ships, which is needed to build ships elsewhere.)
"I am perfectly willing to help, although my assets around Earth are somewhat limited. I can relocate the Erinyes gunship that I am building currently, although I think the aliens have a bit too much military force in Sol to consider anything other than handing over the Gunship. I do agree that we should try to find out more about our alien foes though."

[Skyrunner]

Pelsk

The alien seems to sneer, though it is hard to exactly tell.

"One, the ship you have is called clawcraft, and is obviously the same design as our's. Two, us Kaa are a single, unified race. There are no factions. Three, you cannot stop us if we try to take it by force. We are honoring your backwards race by even offering."

Unlike his ominous threats, the five alien ships stay stationary at their position at the edge of Sol's system. The Alien awaits Pelsk's reply.

Tiruin:
"I cannot fathom the motivation of our Expansionary Fleet. Perhaps stay out of our way and we stay out of your's. That is the way of Kaa."

[RulerOfNothing]

Actually, upon further reflection I think First Rate Industry shouldn't apply to colonizers because I already have a 50% discount on the cost of colony ships, so if I combined that with the cost reduction for 50% HP I would only be spending 12-13 credits per Colonizer Alpha.

[webadict]

Pelsk

The alien seems to sneer, though it is hard to exactly tell.

"One, the ship you have is called clawcraft, and is obviously the same design as our's. Two, us Kaa are a single, unified race. There are no factions. Three, you cannot stop us if we try to take it by force. We are honoring your backwards race by even offering."

Unlike his ominous threats, the five alien ships stay stationary at their position at the edge of Sol's system. The Alien awaits Pelsk's reply.

Tiruin:
"I cannot fathom the motivation of our Expansionary Fleet. Perhaps stay out of our way and we stay out of your's. That is the way of Kaa."

To The Council:
"Hmm...

"I suppose the real issue is why HAVEN'T they completely annihilated us? Not only that, but how did they get a translation device so quickly... Unless all the information we were beaming to the... Clawcraft... was beamed directly to the Kaa, which supports their theory of a unified race. Perhaps there's a reason for this. These aliens certainly feel superior to us... A downfall, if anyone ever asked me. Truly underestimating your opponents.

"Let's see what we can learn, shall we?

"Oh, and does anyone have a tracking device?"

To The Kaa:
"I'm sorry for my foolish questions. You see, we humans are far less advanced, and we have yet to unify as you have. Perhaps there is much we could learn from you. I can certainly arrange the return of your Clawcraft, but to come to a single decision takes some time. I hope you can forgive us inferior beings.

"You see, our dealings with aliens so far have been unfortunate. We have dealt with another alien race for some time. A quite ignoble race of beings much unlike yourselves, and we were unsure of whether you were like them at all, but your demeanor shows you to be respectable. I hope that we may someday be as dignified as you."

(If as you say we may not hold onto Earth indefinitely, does this mean you are going to help with Larger Ship research? It is after all necessary to build manned colonizer ships, which is needed to build ships elsewhere.)
"I am perfectly willing to help, although my assets around Earth are somewhat limited. I can relocate the Erinyes gunship that I am building currently, although I think the aliens have a bit too much military force in Sol to consider anything other than handing over the Gunship. I do agree that we should try to find out more about our alien foes though."

"Doable. I'll spend some research teams on the matter. But, remember that the Decade Tribunal will hear the next time you refuse to show up to a Council Meeting.

"And, yes, I realize. But, to hand over a ship for nothing is dangerous. There's no reason they couldn't just blow Earth to bits right now. The more I can learn about them, the better. One day, we'll likely come across them again, and it's likely they'll be far less generous with us.

"Oh, and it's a 'Clawcraft.'"

[RulerOfNothing]

"I believe the main factor staying the Kaa's hand is that they obviously want their Clawship intact, and we have enough firepower near Earth to reduce the Clawship to millions of very small pieces. Something else that we should probably consider is that the Clawship entered our solar system heavily damaged, so we should try to ask about how that came to be."

[webadict]

"I believe the main factor staying the Kaa's hand is that they obviously want their Clawship intact, and we have enough firepower near Earth to reduce the Clawship to millions of very small pieces. Something else that we should probably consider is that the Clawship entered our solar system heavily damaged, so we should try to ask about how that came to be."

"So, maybe it has valuable Kaa inside of it? And asking about how it was damaged would probably get an answer, but only after being scoffed at about foolish questions. So, yes, that'd probably be a nice question to ask. I'll ask them after the next round of Human Idiot Transmissions.

[Tiruin]

"Hmm...

"I suppose the real issue is why HAVEN'T they completely annihilated us? Not only that, but how did they get a translation device so quickly... Unless all the information we were beaming to the... Clawcraft... was beamed directly to the Kaa, which supports their theory of a unified race. Perhaps there's a reason for this. These aliens certainly feel superior to us... A downfall, if anyone ever asked me. Truly underestimating your opponents.

"Let's see what we can learn, shall we?

"Oh, and does anyone have a tracking device?"

"If we're reasoning in such a manner--know that we've only tried communicating once. That was with...their damaged clawship--considering they have a translator, then mayhap, it was something that already existed before, and they quickly rerouted the signals from my Impasser to a configurable understanding of our common tongue--English.

"That most possible fact notwithstanding, this means they've achieved the status of diplomacy with other races, and thereby must have other contacts. Now considering that they fired upon our explorers and are most probably not even encroaching on our territory, I should continue pressing the matter that those light fighter craft are armed with a substance that is as volatile as the nature of our Homeworld itself: Darkmatter, or Anti-matter as how the physicists call it. We cannot allow a fight to break out--however we can continue relations with them; they are honoring our perimeter by staying at the brink of our gravity well.

"They may be analyzing us. Keep on talking, and I'll re-route my Impasser towards them. Reword that skirmish to 'attacking our exploratory vessels without warning or word.' Or rather, acknowledge the very similar design of use of armaments and color-coding of those ships akin to what we saw now, also a factor in issuing fire."

Amelia sent a message to her Impasser.

"I'm marking my Impasser as a tracking device in itself. He will be our diplomat or ambassador (granted the field of aeronautics and space research is made up of a myriad number of talented individuals), if you prefer. Consider too, to ask what the Clawship is, given how it in similar design is equal to our Gunship. A single-manned vessel.

"You can thank Charles Darwin as a result and beam up the evolutionary file to them too. I always hated that theory. By the way, if you're going to use my idea--please speak for me. I think that given their 'unified' feature, they look at a hierarchical system of authority? You spoke up, you be our delegate."

She gave him a smile through the videofeed much similar to the slyness of a :3

"Also it'd be best to make a comparison of statements of 'why you can blow up our explorers' and 'why you're coming in peace to honor us' and 'the value of this Clawship would equal...?' and other such ideas. But its your call."

> I do believe our ships already have their own "tracking devices" on them, right?

[Skyrunner]

What, you're going to send the impasser to the aliens? @.@
And no, Mission Control tracks where the ships are, not the other way around.
Pelsk

The alien narrows its eyes.

"We do not have all the time in the universe, alien. But ... we shall entertain your request for now." It settles back in its seat.

[webadict]

What, you're going to send the impasser to the aliens? @.@
And no, Mission Control tracks where the ships are, not the other way around.
Pelsk

The alien narrows its eyes.

"We do not have all the time in the universe, alien. But ... we shall entertain your request for now." It settles back in its seat.

"So, whatcha guys breathe? Oxygen? Because that's what we breathe. Also, what happened to the Clawship? It looked like it was in clawful condition."

[Skyrunner]

Pelsk
"Yes, oxygen.

What is this... "clawful"? It does not appear to be in the translator's vocabulary. The clawcraft was being pursuited by other aliens and sustained heavy damage before warping out and into this system. Where you aliens shot out its remaining engines, stranding it for good."