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[Leafsnail]

The Żołnieże Wyklęci were not Nazis, but they are frequently lionized by far-right groups, and indeed it turns out that the guy wearing their shirt likes a whole bunch of far-right groups.
http://www.polygon.com/2014/12/18/7417045/hatred-free-speech-and-one-developers-connections-with-polands-far
(it starts describing them under "New Media").  There's also the fact that all the official responses to these allegations seem to be defensive of these organizations rather than apologetic.

This is all no reason to prevent them from making the game of course, but the idea of actively supporting these people seems terrible if you want to promote free speech.  I'd also say that freedom of speech does not imply that you have a right to be on any particular platform - would you be making these same exact arguments if someone tried to get pornography onto Steam?

Yeah, Polish "Nazis". Lord almighty.

Are you trying to imply there's some kind of contradiction here?  Would you be happier if I said "neo-fascists" instead?

[TamerVirus]

Are you against pornography on Steam?

[Virtz]

The Żołnieże Wyklęci were not Nazis, but they are frequently lionized by far-right groups, and indeed it turns out that the guy wearing their shirt likes a whole bunch of far-right groups.
http://www.polygon.com/2014/12/18/7417045/hatred-free-speech-and-one-developers-connections-with-polands-far
(it starts describing them under "New Media").  There's also the fact that all the official responses to these allegations seem to be defensive of these organizations rather than apologetic.

This is all no reason to prevent them from making the game of course, but the idea of actively supporting these people seems terrible if you want to promote free speech.  I'd also say that freedom of speech does not imply that you have a right to be on any particular platform - would you be making these same exact arguments if someone tried to get pornography onto Steam?

How about you go take a look what your favourite animu makers think about Imperial Japan, then? Like if you want to take the moral highground here (particularly based on allegations), then you're gonna have a problem with the sort of entertainment you partake in.

Yeah, Polish "Nazis". Lord almighty.

Are you trying to imply there's some kind of contradiction here?  Would you be happier if I said "neo-fascists" instead?

Considering some people still think Nazi concentration-camps located in Poland were Polish-run, yeah, that's a pretty hurtful association to put out. Especially against people who lost relatives to Nazis.

[Leafsnail]

How about you go take a look what your favourite animu makers think about Imperial Japan, then? Like if you want to take the moral highground here (particularly based on allegations), then you're gonna have a problem with the sort of entertainment you partake in.

So what you're saying is that you have no response and you'll instead go for an irrelevant ad-hominem?  I certainly would not seek to support neofascist anime either.

Considering some people still think Nazi concentration-camps located in Poland were Polish-run, yeah, that's a pretty hurtful association to put out. Especially against people who lost relatives to Nazis.

I was specifically criticizing neofascist groups rather than all Polish people so this is also entirely irrelevant.

[Virtz]

How about you go take a look what your favourite animu makers think about Imperial Japan, then? Like if you want to take the moral highground here (particularly based on allegations), then you're gonna have a problem with the sort of entertainment you partake in.

So what you're saying is that you have no response and you'll instead go for an irrelevant ad-hominem?  I certainly would not seek to support neofascist anime either.

You're saying people who support this game support Nazis, but when it's directed right back it's "an irrelevant ad-hominem"?

Do you like Attack on Titan? I've heard a few things about its author's opinion of Imperial Japan.

Considering some people still think Nazi concentration-camps located in Poland were Polish-run, yeah, that's a pretty hurtful association to put out. Especially against people who lost relatives to Nazis.

I was specifically criticizing neofascist groups rather than all Polish people so this is also entirely irrelevant.

"My grand-grand father was killed by Gestapo," writes Zielinski. "Some members of my family were fighting against nazi occupation in the Polish underground army called 'Armia Krajowa'. My forefathers suffered greatly because of totalitarian regimes, so who the fuck would I be if I'd truly support any of Nazi activists?

Yeah, totally irrelevant.

[Leafsnail]

You're saying people who support this game support Nazis, but when it's directed right back it's "an irrelevant ad-hominem"?

Do you like Attack on Titan? I've heard a few things about its author's opinion of Imperial Japan.

I am not in a rush to give Isayama any money, and if I did I would certainly not claim that by doing so I was supporting freedom of speech.  In any case though if you want to challenge people who watch Attack on Titan I'd suggest doing it in the anime thread or something because it's entirely unrelated to the videogame Hatred.

Yeah, totally irrelevant.

The fact that your family once fought against one form of fascism doesn't mean you cannot subscribe to another.  This seems like the "some of my friends are black so somehow my obviously racist comments don't count" argument.

[Nick K]

The link leafsnail posted has comments from a Polish sociologist who's involved in an anti-racist organisation. To copy-paste:

But Never Again's Pankowski says the difference between calling groups like the ONR "neo-Nazi" versus "radical right" versus "neo-fascist" is merely a semantic debate.

"The defense that they make," Pankowski said, "is that ‘we are Polish’ and that ‘Nazism is a German thing. Therefore, we cannot be Nazis. This doesn’t make too much sense to me, but it is true in a way. Nazism was invented in Germany back in the day. But if you look at ONR’s ideology, in some ways it’s not so very different [from Nazism]. But it’s Polish.

"Certainly they don’t believe in the superiority of the German race. But they are very much hostile to different minorities living in Poland, and they don’t believe in a democratic system. So, in some ways, this ideology is similar to Nazism — or fascism, or extreme nationalism. There are different ways you could call it, but I think there is something in common. But they wouldn’t want to call themselves neo-Nazis, but I think in some ways they are not so different from the other versions of what you could call fascist or neo-fascist or extreme right ideology in other countries."

The FNVG blog linked to a bunch of articles about organisations supported on facebook by various members of the hatred team  - these are clearly anti-semitic, anti-muslim and homophobic far-right groups.
http://www.islamophobiawatch.co.uk/anti-islamic-group-patrols-clubs-to-protect-polish-women/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Polish_Youth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Radical_Camp_%281993%29

I don't think this sort of content should necessarily be banned or censored - we allow groups like the BNP and EDL to exist here in England after all. It's just silly to throw money at this sort of company just because they had trouble getting their game on steam though.
If you don't mind giving money to neo-fascists and desperately want to play their oh-so-edgy murder simulator then go ahead and buy it I guess, but don't try to justify it by pretending that the developers are somehow heroes of free-speech.

[Stuebi]

If you don't mind giving money to neo-fascists and desperately want to play their oh-so-edgy murder simulator then go ahead and buy it I guess, but don't try to justify it by pretending that the developers are somehow heroes of free-speech.

Pretty much this.

I mean, I was against taking it down because as others pointed out, there are games like Postal and Manhunt avaiable. And not to mention the metric-ton of halfassed rip-offs lately. I would've just ignored this and let it die down, because without the outrage and the publicity gained by it, "Edgelord, the Edgening" would probably just have failed and vanished. But the amount of people going "I will buy this to support free-speech!" is baffling.

Thank you very much guys, for supporting and buying a game not based on how good it is, or if it adds something to the market, or if it's worth the money, but because it appearantly supports "free speech". Considering how astoundingly _GOOD_ Steams Quality control is, this is _EXACTLY_ what we need.

[Rez]

Nothing says confidence in your beliefs like thinking that people can't be exposed to information or they'll believe the wrong thing.

[ragnar119]

People are buying a product. Who made it doesnt matter. They work on something, if you like the product you support them so they can make new products like that.

This is a game, buying it you are supporting developer to make more games like this. I am not sure how can anyone even say buying this game means supporting neo nazis or whatever.

If the game is good buy it, if not dont. Looking in private lives of developer and deciding because of it to buy/not buy a game is in my book wrong.

[Rolan7]

Personal lives are one thing, but I wouldn't buy anything from a group of developers if most of them "happened" to be outspoken neonazis.  Even if their creative product didn't appear to have nazi-supporting themes.

But realistically, this is just analyzing the unfinished product.  It's a murder-spree simulator... possibly developed by a fascists.  If true, we can be reasonably worried that the game will have an unsavory fascist agenda (beyond just being offensive).

The amount of free press this is getting just for being offensive is sad, though.  Steam really did them a favor by removing it, reinvigorating the story.

[Talfryn]

It's back on Greenlight in the number one spot. Free speech arguments sort of make sense. While people do not have a constitutional right to free speech on the Valve marketplace, it also can be said that it is a societal value we like to uphold.

As for the game, it looks like it could be fun, hell even relaxing. Since this is the DF forums, I'll be honest and say that doing twisted things in video games =/= doing them in reality, and that, for instance, playing a first person shooter can be fun and relaxing for a normal person. I'm worried about how the game will handle the difficulty, since they need to carefully balance the amount to which you're attack unarmed people (Mermaid farming anyone?) versus law enforcement/whatever else they have that shoots you.

Now, the developers being Fascist. Erm... personally I think that's really an individual decision, as to should you buy a game that supports it. On one hand I find it funny we see this as a huge issue with this Polish company, when we've all undoubtedly played games made by all sorts of wingnuts. Personally, I view it as, do I like the game? If yes, I'll probably buy it.

I've always thought that fascism, racism, etc, aren't inherently bad. Wait, don't reply yet! Actions are bad. If the Poland decides to be a fascist state, that's mostly okay with me. Ditto if they decide by majority that you've got to be ethnically polish to get in. I draw the line at denying other people what I consider to be inalienable human rights, which I'll admit is a hard line to track. So far as I can tell, these guys haven't really done that. So for me, I'm not worried about them.

[Kaje]

There was this kind of media backlash against games like GTA, and the airport 'level' in one of the Call of Duty games. Whenever there's anything remotely risqué in a game, the media jump on it and try to turn people against it. The same doesn't usually happen for films, or other art forms, and that's annoying.

I could go on to Amazon and purchase a book or film which shows - or describes - graphic violence against innocents. Some of those have even won awards.

The only difference here is that it is interactive, but studies have shown that violent video games actually act as an outlet and can often reduce the risk of someone committing real acts of violence.

As for the developers being seedy, I think if you dig deep enough you'll find idiots in every single company on Earth. Look at Henry Ford, a known Nazi sympathiser - people still bought his cars by the thousand. Walt Disney was a bit anti-semitic, yet people lapped up his work. I would say both of those people were FAR worse than these game developers, yet that didn't stop people adding to their profits.

I'll probably buy it, I'll definitely play it.

[Leafsnail]

I've always thought that fascism, racism, etc, aren't inherently bad. Wait, don't reply yet! Actions are bad. If the Poland decides to be a fascist state, that's mostly okay with me. Ditto if they decide by majority that you've got to be ethnically polish to get in. I draw the line at denying other people what I consider to be inalienable human rights, which I'll admit is a hard line to track. So far as I can tell, these guys haven't really done that. So for me, I'm not worried about them.

You do not understand what fascism is

e: or what human rights are for that matter.

[TamerVirus]

Lets hypothetically assume that these guys are Neo-Nazi wannabes.

I wonder, how much of an effect giving a couple of rando Polish dudes a couple of dollars will have on your life?

Or is it the principle of it?