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[Tacomagic]

So, I'm working on making a few towers out of ice.  I'm in a tundra with adjoining mountain and there was a frozen brook in it.  I already mined all the ice out of there and now need more.

My question is:
Has anyone ever created a high-volume ice-caster?

I know I can designate some pond zones and use dwarf labor to cast ice, but my preference would be to find a way to do it on a larger scale with some automation. I have several ideas on how to do this, but doing it quickly and with a minimal need for extensive evaporation would be ideal.

If this hasn't been extensively played with, then I feel some SCIENCE! coming on.

Another question:  If you were to dig out ice with an up/down stair, producing a chunk of ice, and have that square immediately flood and freeze.  Does that chunk of ice get maintained in that cast wall of ice, or is it destroyed/absorbed? What I'm getting at is: if a single tile were to undergo a series of dig-outs, floods, and freezes, could you ever get more than one chunk of ice in that spot?

[pisskop]

-I dont know if you can melt the very edge of the map with magma, if you can than you could use that.
-how would a water cannon work?


The main issue I foresee with using a 'casting' device is that it has to be above ground and ice will freeze instantly, capping the caster.

   -Ohh, remember when people would cast obsidian in the air to drop on demons or plug a magma pipe?  Do that with ice?  -hang on, ill find the article-

[Dirst]

Assuming your have an aquifer or cavern sea, it should be possible to pipe water around so long as it remains "inside."  Once it gets "outside" it will freeze.  You'll need a flow cut-off to prevent the icejam from flooding your fort.

I'm picturing a long-ish enclosed aboveground pipe with floor grates that empty into the riverbed.  Then you can cast a bunch of ice, mine it, and repeat.

[pisskop]

I couldnt find it, but the idea is to cast obsidian that has no support and falls to the bottom as a boulder.  I imagine just using a hole at least 3x3 and using three floodgates to control the water

FFF
 w
 w
 w

Where the F is a floodgate and only the middle one ever opens.  The other two on either side are to prevent support, and force the ice to collapse.

[Tacomagic]

I couldnt find it, but the idea is to cast obsidian that has no support and falls to the bottom as a boulder.  I imagine just using a hole at least 3x3 and using three floodgates to control the water

FFF
 w
 w
 w

Where the F is a floodgate and only the middle one ever opens.  The other two on either side are to prevent support, and force the ice to collapse.

An interesting idea, but there is an issues in that all the aboveground tiles will freeze, crippling that design.

Assuming your have an aquifer or cavern sea, it should be possible to pipe water around so long as it remains "inside."

I tested this earlier.  It's not the "inside" flag that keeps water from freezing, but "subterranean."  This makes above-ground plumbing impossible without magma heaters to keep it flowing.

I've thought of using a central covered pipe with bridges made below ground (similar setup), but it requires a lot of mechanics.  Each bridge would produce, at most, 12 pieces of ice, or 1.2 tiles of ice per tile of bridge and adjacent water.  I'd like to have a better ratio than that.

I'm kicking around an idea of using pressure to cause water to upwell into a chamber that's partially exposed.  By upwelling through a centrally inside/subteranean/dark tile surrounded by above-ground tiles, I should feasibly be able to create 8 blocks of ice for every single upwelling tile spaced at leat 2 tiles away from each other.  Once the entire area is cast, then shut down the pump and open a drain (or, alternately, pull a lever connected to an appropriately sized atom smasher to get rid of the correct quantity of water to allow the top chamber to drain).  Eiher that, or just carve up/down stairs in an couple adjacent tiles after the pump is off to drain some of the water and cause it to freeze.  Once that's done, the ice can be mined out with impunity.

Not sure if it's going to work, but it seems like it has the chance.  If it works, I'll be realizing a ratio of 8 tiles per bridge/adjacent water, much better than the pipe method.

Unfortunately I have no aquifer and my water is located very deep.  Have to get my pump-stack operational before I can give this a try.

[pisskop]

An interesting idea, but there is an issues in that all the aboveground tiles will freeze, crippling that design.

Thats not an issue if you dont put the piping aboveground.  In fact, thats what the hole is for, so you didnt go above ground.  But is sounds like you dont have any source of water topside.

Consider making a hole all the way down to the water instead, collapsing it like a cork.

[vjek]

Two ways I can think of;  One safe/easy, one harder,  maybe?

The easy way is to find a temperate embark that starts out freezing, but just thaws during summer.  That way, you build an above ground pool, fill it, wait for it to freeze, and repeat.  Easiest way is to use a screw pump to fill the pool (a sealed rectangular structure) from a channeled trench from a river.  Fill it, and wait for fall/winter/spring.  Can make it as large as you want.  Mine it out during the frozen months, refill it when everything thaws.

More difficult way is build a pathable wall above ground, then designate ponds on either side, at the top of the wall.  Dwarves will bring water up from the aquifer or caverns and pour it on the pond designation, where, if things are right, temperature-wise, it should freeze quite quickly and you can pour & mine to your hearts content, in a freezing biome embark.  If you have an aquifer, it's not that hard, but having to do this from the caverns can be challenging.

Last time I tested this (34.11?) it worked as expected, producing infinite ice boulders

[Tacomagic]

An interesting idea, but there is an issues in that all the aboveground tiles will freeze, crippling that design.

Thats not an issue if you dont put the piping aboveground.  In fact, thats what the hole is for, so you didnt go above ground.  But is sounds like you dont have any source of water topside.

Consider making a hole all the way down to the water instead, collapsing it like a cork.

I was referencing the fact that when you channel out the holes to build the hach covers, it'll mark everything below that spot as above ground, freezing the water below, preventing the controlled collapse.

[Skullsploder]

Wouldn't that just cause a solid natural ice wall to be dropped out of the caster?

Also I'm pretty sure being frozen in ice destroys all [ORGANIC] things, leaving metal and such behind, so it's possible that you could end up with multiple chunks of ice per tile if you freeze-mine-repeat without clearing the gathered ice.

Unless something has changed in the new version, only underground areas are safe from freezing (or underground and below the lowest ice layer if you're in a glacier), and exposing a square to light makes it permanently "above ground." So digging the piping for the water will be difficult. How you can prevent freezing is by placing magma beneath the casting area, HOWEVER, from the most recent ice science, magma has to be flowing to prevent freezing - it can't be static. How I can envision this working is if you have a caster that contains three layered elements: The casting layer (z3), the magma heating layer (z2) and the magma tank layer (z1 and z0) The magma heating layer and the magma tank layer would be separated by a retracting bridge, and the magma heating layer would be separated from the casting layer by a constructed floor. At the flick of a lever, pumps simultaneously start filling the casting layer with water and the heating layer with magma, respectively. The water will come through faster than the magma, but that's ok, because the magma should melt the ice as it goes. Eventually, the entire casting layer will be filled with water. A few ticks later it will all be ice, because the magma will have filled up the heating layer and therefore is no longer moving. At this stage, you just flick another lever to retract the bridge separating the heating and tank layers, and the entire contents of the heating layer drop back into the tank layer without any loss. There will be slight magma loss due to evaporation as the heating layer fills, but only a very little bit, and this can be solved by pumping the tank full to maximum whenever the caster is inactive.

Code: (side view) [Select]

||||
~__X_____|
|-%%.....|
|MMMMMMMM|
|MMMMMMMM|

_ constructed floor
~ water source
X floodgate
| wall
%% screw pump, magma safe and pumping from left
..... retracting bridge
- open space
M magma

Like this. This should let you cast a lot of ice to be harvested and quite quickly, with short "cool downs" between castings.

[Tacomagic]

Wouldn't that just cause a solid natural ice wall to be dropped out of the caster?

Also I'm pretty sure being frozen in ice destroys all [ORGANIC] things, leaving metal and such behind, so it's possible that you could end up with multiple chunks of ice per tile if you freeze-mine-repeat without clearing the gathered ice.

Unless something has changed in the new version, only underground areas are safe from freezing (or underground and below the lowest ice layer if you're in a glacier), and exposing a square to light makes it permanently "above ground." So digging the piping for the water will be difficult. How you can prevent freezing is by placing magma beneath the casting area, HOWEVER, from the most recent ice science, magma has to be flowing to prevent freezing - it can't be static. How I can envision this working is if you have a caster that contains three layered elements: The casting layer (z3), the magma heating layer (z2) and the magma tank layer (z1 and z0) The magma heating layer and the magma tank layer would be separated by a retracting bridge, and the magma heating layer would be separated from the casting layer by a constructed floor. At the flick of a lever, pumps simultaneously start filling the casting layer with water and the heating layer with magma, respectively. The water will come through faster than the magma, but that's ok, because the magma should melt the ice as it goes. Eventually, the entire casting layer will be filled with water. A few ticks later it will all be ice, because the magma will have filled up the heating layer and therefore is no longer moving. At this stage, you just flick another lever to retract the bridge separating the heating and tank layers, and the entire contents of the heating layer drop back into the tank layer without any loss. There will be slight magma loss due to evaporation as the heating layer fills, but only a very little bit, and this can be solved by pumping the tank full to maximum whenever the caster is inactive.

Code: (side view) [Select]

||||
~__X_____|
|-%%.....|
|MMMMMMMM|
|MMMMMMMM|

_ constructed floor
~ water source
X floodgate
| wall
%% screw pump, magma safe and pumping from left
..... retracting bridge
- open space
M magma

Like this. This should let you cast a lot of ice to be harvested and quite quickly, with short "cool downs" between castings.

Oh, I like this idea.  Very dwarfy.

I'm going to attempt the up-welling method first, since it'll require quite a bit less work compared to the magma version (and my water is much closer to the surface than my magma is).  However, once I have a better control of my magma situation, I think I'm going to give that a go, since it requires a lot less careful construction to pull off.

Question for magma flow: Does flow automatically propegate across all the magma, or does teleporting magma ignore all the tiles it teleports across for flow determination.

[Button]

Also I'm pretty sure being frozen in ice destroys all [ORGANIC] things, leaving metal and such behind, so it's possible that you could end up with multiple chunks of ice per tile if you freeze-mine-repeat without clearing the gathered ice.

Nah, I once recovered wooden cages with (living!) animals in them from a frozen elven caravan. (In 0.34.)

[Spitemaster]

If magma has to be flowing to prevent freezing, just have a magma heater under a large area with a 'flow shut off' valve.  Then flood the area and shut off the heater, mine, and repeat.

[ptb_ptb]

If magma has to be flowing to prevent freezing, just have a magma heater under a large area with a 'flow shut off' valve.  Then flood the area and shut off the heater, mine, and repeat.

If you want to keep ice melted with magma you need near half the magma tiles to be a different depth to the other half. e.g. All 7/7 = No heating. Half 7/7 half 6/7 = Lots of heating. All 7/7 except for one 6/7 = repeated re-freezing and gradual melting.

You can see how the last one works here:
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9877

[pisskop]

An interesting idea, but there is an issues in that all the aboveground tiles will freeze, crippling that design.

Thats not an issue if you dont put the piping aboveground.  In fact, thats what the hole is for, so you didnt go above ground.  But is sounds like you dont have any source of water topside.

Consider making a hole all the way down to the water instead, collapsing it like a cork.

I was referencing the fact that when you channel out the holes to build the hach covers, it'll mark everything below that spot as above ground, freezing the water below, preventing the controlled collapse.

Im not sure I follow. Where is a floor hatch needed over the water you are essentially routing to a pitfall?  I really appreciate the love of overcomplexity and magma, but none of that is needed?

Dig a hole to you intended site, 5 wide and at least 3 out from the flow.  Make it as deep as you need.  Route water into the hole, in the middle.  Have three floodgates, the middle one connected so you can turn off the flow and the ice maker.  three mechanisms later you have a minimum for the machine.  Add doors, hatches, goodies at need; and a bridge to prevent flyers and good climbers from pathing in or out of the pit and you are good to go.

You could even get really fancy and only expose the  single central output tile to the surface, to prevent any diagonally flowing  water from freezing and minimizing the area needed to ensure there is no support.

[Tacomagic]

An interesting idea, but there is an issues in that all the aboveground tiles will freeze, crippling that design.

Thats not an issue if you dont put the piping aboveground.  In fact, thats what the hole is for, so you didnt go above ground.  But is sounds like you dont have any source of water topside.

Consider making a hole all the way down to the water instead, collapsing it like a cork.

I was referencing the fact that when you channel out the holes to build the hach covers, it'll mark everything below that spot as above ground, freezing the water below, preventing the controlled collapse.

Im not sure I follow. Where is a floor hatch needed over the water you are essentially routing to a pitfall?  I really appreciate the love of overcomplexity and magma, but none of that is needed?

Dig a hole to you intended site, 5 wide and at least 3 out from the flow.  Make it as deep as you need.  Route water into the hole, in the middle.  Have three floodgates, the middle one connected so you can turn off the flow and the ice maker.  three mechanisms later you have a minimum for the machine.  Add doors, hatches, goodies at need; and a bridge to prevent flyers and good climbers from pathing in or out of the pit and you are good to go.

You could even get really fancy and only expose the  single central output tile to the surface, to prevent any diagonally flowing  water from freezing and minimizing the area needed to ensure there is no support.

Ahh, I was misunderstanding.  I was picturing your diagram as being from the side, so was thinking you wanted to drop these blocks of ice into water (was not really sure why we were doing that).  It makes sense now!

I'll have to give it a try, would indeed be very simple, and it could be expanded to as big as you wanted.  I think I'm going to try this before the upwelling shenanigans I was going to do.  With tactical surface channeling and flooring, you could imrove your exposure area for larger cast chunks.