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[Bouchart]

The game just looks awesome, but yeah I might give Dungeon Master a try.

Eye of the Beholder, Stonekeep and Anvil of Dawn are other good games of the same genre.

[Retropunch]

The Wizardry series is great, although depending on how well you deal with a dated interface/graphics you might find them a bit awkward by today's standard (much like Ultima Underworld). I'd say Wiz VII is a good starting point, as it's sort of modern enough not to hurt but is still very much an old school dungeoner. Wiz VIII made that terrible jump to 3d that all games did where they didn't quite have it properly down yet. I never completed it due to getting stuck somewhere, but it was still good fun.

I have to say overall though, I much prefer the Might and Magic series, as I didn't really like the Wizardry setting/atmosphere as much. Stonekeep is fantastic for atmosphere, and Anvil of Dawn is a really solid one - if fiendishly difficult in parts.

 

[Parsely]

The Wizardry series is great, although depending on how well you deal with a dated interface/graphics-

*holds up System Shock 1 and OldCOM* Honestly it can't be that bad.

[Moghjubar]

Ooooh, theres also Lands of Lore series, just remembered those.  I ended up watching lets plays of them, somewhat entertaining.

[Retropunch]

Can't believe I forgot the M&M series! World of Xeen is a powerhouse of a game. And VI and VII are both excellent, too.

You're right about Wiz VIII falling into that dark age where it was trendy for everything to be 3d before it was actually decent (that period put me off 3d for a long time). Doesn't get in the way of enjoying it, by any means, but there'd certainly be an audience for an updated remake with Grimrock-like graphics.

Out of interest, what was it about the Wizardry setting that put you off? I just ask because I always thought M&M and Wizardry were very similar in terms of atmosphere, with their combination of science-fiction and standard fantasy, along with the humour that popped up in both series. Though, Wizardry was more... surrealist (possibly?), and Might and Magic was more... aah, it's difficult because they're so similar!

World of Xeen is just amazing! Takes a while to get into, but some truly incredibly bits in it.

Definitely know what you mean about a Wiz VIII update. I vaguely remember a graphics overhaul mod being started, but I don't seem to be able to find it (and I doubt it'd have made a huge difference).

I'm not sure quite why I didn't like them as much (and they're both fantastic series). I think a large part of it was the surreality and sort of...cuteness? I really couldn't put my finger on it, just that something didn't really click with me somehow - possibly just that the mesh of sci-fi and standard fantasy sometimes didn't mesh as well as Xeen.

[Silfurdreki]

One thing I have noticed no one's mentioned is the spell system - is it the same as in the previous game? It evoked a few memories of Stonekeep for me, fiddling with runes to work out new spells, but I found it a bit fiddly for the middle of combat. Plus the optimal way to build a Wizard seemed to be one in which you'd be likely to have a single powerful damage spell which would be your mainstay, perhaps switching to Sparks or another starting-spell alternative for the rare enemies resistant to your favoured element.

It's mostly the same. Even most of the spells are the same with a few additions and one or two changes. The biggest (and best) change is that you can now click and drag to select runes, with all spells being changed to not have any unconnected runes since that'd be impossible with the new system.

In other news, I finished the game.

Spoiler: End-part spoilers (click to show/hide)

I was slightly disappointed by the "true" final boss, mostly because the Lindworm was a so much more entertaining fight. The Trickster/Island Master fight was just tame by comparison. Maybe it was the environs and general mood, now that I think about it, since the fights were otherwise not that different.

Finally I'd also put in a good word for the Might and Magic games. Only ever played VII and VIII, but man were those good. VIII was hilarious with potential Dragon party members and all the OPness that implies. VII would be an overall stronger game, though, in my opinion. I'm a bit sad that the series lost its sci-fi/fantasy backstory and general flavour in recent times, though. It was a really neat setting they had going and the state of the current games is incredibly bland in comparison.

[Stuebi]

I've put the game aside because I got stuck in a Dungeon, and have NO idea where I have to go now. I was able to pull a lever, but havent found the door it opened. (It's the dungeon after the forest, "Ruins of something", forgot the name. I'm about to run out of food and those blasted ice elementals are kicking the sh*t out of me).

I like the exploration and treasure hunting aspects. But the combat pretty much forces you to either abuse doors, or just troll the enemies with sidestepping. I'm also not a fan of the game suddenly SPAMMING Ice Elementals. Because whoever thought it would be fair to suddenly throw 5 of these at you, with an aoe that two shots my backrow, with the crystal not reachable from that point, is a sadist prick.

I wanted to try out the old Might and Magic games. Which one would be a good starting point?

[debvon]

Choosing where to fight is a large part of the game. Combat doesn't force you to abuse anything, but if you want to succeed you really should make a habbit of it Chokepoints, hallways, and (when an enemy or two is isolated) spacious antechambers are yours to take advantage of. I will admit that some of the fights I encountered on hard mode made me quicksave before everything, but I never ran into anything that I simply couldn't overcome with the tools I had and a few quick loads. Keep in mind that many of the really challenging fights barring bosses are for bonus loot and totally optional.

[Sinistar]

I'll jump on FPRPG mini-derail train to add just this: There's also little known Wizzards & Warriors game which, while I never played it, got a relatively high score in a gaming magazine I used to read years ago. 85/100 or something. It was pretty neat, had some sort of hybrid battle system, turned-based but you could dodge (and maybe move) during turns in real time, I think. Also had a lot of classes and playable races, with such oddities like humanoid elephants and monkey people.

Man, I wish I could go 10 years back in time and get me a copy...

[Retropunch]

I'll jump on FPRPG mini-derail train to add just this: There's also little known Wizzards & Warriors game which, while I never played it, got a relatively high score in a gaming magazine I used to read years ago. 85/100 or something. It was pretty neat, had some sort of hybrid battle system, turned-based but you could dodge (and maybe move) during turns in real time, I think. Also had a lot of classes and playable races, with such oddities like humanoid elephants and monkey people.

Man, I wish I could go 10 years back in time and get me a copy...

Yeah I've read a lot about it but never got around to it. I had a friend who was mad about it and said that it was a very solid entry, but was just very dated by the time it actually came out (2000). I also remember being told that it suffered a lot from the 'running backwards whilst shooting' tactic which meant you could take out pretty much anything. Whilst all FPRPGs suffer from this to an extent, apparently W&W was especially bad for it.

Anyone fancying a more updated one could try the latest Might & Magic: Legends. Whilst it's not nearly the same as the old ones, it's a sort of more open world version of Grimrock. Warning though:
creating a non-viable party is very possible, and it does sometimes feel like a puzzle of 'find which monster I can actually defeat' - still fun though.

[Parsely]

Wizardry 5 on the SNES is surprisingly obtuse. Gonna have to do some reading. :S

[Retropunch]

Just got it last night and put in a few hours.

I have to say, I much prefer it to Grimrock 1, just because I think it's got a more adventure-y feel rather than a puzzle dungeon with some fighting. The learning curve isn't as steep and levelling your characters is much better (if still a little bit simplistic). The enemies are still pretty dumb, but at least have a few special moves to counteract the standard sidestepping.

Loot is still sparse, but not as much as the first one, and the different scenery makes for a much better feel than endless claustrophobic corridors. It does unfortunately have a few dickhead puzzles as mentioned before, and I still hate the fact that you can't get round them - you HAVE to trigger some things that then get you attacked - it'd be nice if there were ways around things. 

Also, this runs fine on a very old laptop (1.4ghz processor, dedicated (but rubbish) graphics card, 4gb ram) which I know is of concern to some people here.

[Silfurdreki]

I've put the game aside because I got stuck in a Dungeon, and have NO idea where I have to go now. I was able to pull a lever, but havent found the door it opened. (It's the dungeon after the forest, "Ruins of something", forgot the name. I'm about to run out of food and those blasted ice elementals are kicking the sh*t out of me).

I like the exploration and treasure hunting aspects. But the combat pretty much forces you to either abuse doors, or just troll the enemies with sidestepping. I'm also not a fan of the game suddenly SPAMMING Ice Elementals. Because whoever thought it would be fair to suddenly throw 5 of these at you, with an aoe that two shots my backrow, with the crystal not reachable from that point, is a sadist prick.

I wanted to try out the old Might and Magic games. Which one would be a good starting point?

From your description I don't really know what lever you're talking about, but the amount of ice elementals tells me you might be in the 'Meditation Spire' secret  which is pretty much the only point that far in that throws more than two ice elementals at you, IIRC. That area is also not required, so you can skip it until you get some better gear going.

As for M&M, I'd suggest VII (For Blood and Honour), that's where I started and I did not feel like I missed something. VI (Mandate of Heaven) is also supposed to be good, though, but I've never played it myself.

[Stuebi]

I've put the game aside because I got stuck in a Dungeon, and have NO idea where I have to go now. I was able to pull a lever, but havent found the door it opened. (It's the dungeon after the forest, "Ruins of something", forgot the name. I'm about to run out of food and those blasted ice elementals are kicking the sh*t out of me).

I like the exploration and treasure hunting aspects. But the combat pretty much forces you to either abuse doors, or just troll the enemies with sidestepping. I'm also not a fan of the game suddenly SPAMMING Ice Elementals. Because whoever thought it would be fair to suddenly throw 5 of these at you, with an aoe that two shots my backrow, with the crystal not reachable from that point, is a sadist prick.

I wanted to try out the old Might and Magic games. Which one would be a good starting point?

From your description I don't really know what lever you're talking about, but the amount of ice elementals tells me you might be in the 'Meditation Spire' secret  which is pretty much the only point that far in that throws more than two ice elementals at you, IIRC. That area is also not required, so you can skip it until you get some better gear going.

As for M&M, I'd suggest VII (For Blood and Honour), that's where I started and I did not feel like I missed something. VI (Mandate of Heaven) is also supposed to be good, though, but I've never played it myself.

Right, thanks! I might just have blundered into that one a bit early. I had to cheese them by blocking their projectiles with one of the doors you can open and close. Evereytime the thing shot, I just closed the door, all the while pelting it with magic. Eventually all of them went down. But that lever really eludes me. I jsut cant find the spot where I'm supposed to go now, and I think I might have played myself into a dead end via starvation.

[Silfurdreki]

Starvation can be alleviated by going back to the beginning are every once in a while since the turtles on the beach respawn every now and then. It's based on steps taken, I believe. In the short term you can also 'fish' by grabbing the fish swimming around under water. There's quite a bit of fish in the three river areas so that should last a while.

If you're at the meditation spire, then you can actually get out of the Ruins of Desarune via a secret.

Spoiler: hint (click to show/hide)

It's close to the entrance, but on the non-entrance side of the wall. Look closely at the walls!'

What part of the ruins are you stuck in? As in, what general area of the map? I might be able to give a hint as to what you need to do.