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Total Members Voted: 17

[Stirk]

But that begs the question, what happens if you die somewhere without an opposite world counterpart?

Currently, I have been assuming that they are counted as their place of birth .For example, an Armu born on planet 1 goes to the moon and spontaneously combusts, he would be reincarnated on planet 2 even though he was off-planet at the time of his death. Not sure how the one-planet will work. Self-contained single planet reincarnation?

[Rolepgeek]

It's also inherent in the system for realistic reasons. Short-lived things breed faster, longer-lived things breed slower. It's the way biology/evolution happens to work. Not arbitrary.

Also, at a certain point of 'short-lived' they don't have the necessary lifespan to learn life-skills and develop sentience well. It's not a fast process, coming to understand the world around you and figure out how 'thinking' works. Takes time.

Also, yeah, Industrial Revolution was in swing. And immigration, as I said. On the other hand, there's a crapton of new land to cultivate as well, which was why I was trying to use America. It's rather difficult doing these sorts of population growth analyses, since we don't actually have anything historical to compare it to, not really; our current situation is basically; massive excess of land(overcrowding and space not an issue), no immigration because closed system(thus all growth comes from Divine Intervention or natural birth rates vs. death rates), medieval level technology, and uh, the most important ones of all: fantastic races(in the fantasy sense) whose anatomies vary widely, and magic.

And Stirk: You're right, it's not. However, I wasn't trying to do it without context. I'm using wikipedia(blah blah not valid source blah it's close enough for our purposes, given the automatic inaccuracy from a fantasy setting), and the human race's population was about 3-4 Million, from what I'm looking at, from around 10000 BC to 5000 BC, with the (large-scale, at least) terrible organization and technological levels back then. After which, it rose rather steadily to 50 Million over the next 4000 years. And yeah, sure, this is sorta evidence for your point, but A. Magic B. Other races with which to trade with to create a larger and thus more advanced functional economy C. Higher tech levels(pretty sure, anyway), and most importantly

D. Humans were created, with I think 3 million of them, somewhere around ticks 6-15. It is currently tick 93. I asked somewhere around tick 90. If a tick is on average, say, 10 years, which is a low estimate, I feel, that's about 800 years. If a tick is, say, 40, though, it's more like 3,600. For which the growth certainly makes sense, if compared to real life data.

But again. Magic, and other races. But, you guys have a point; it's not as tremendous a deal as I thought, though with the population being ~100 million at this point, population growth should begin speeding up objectively(not proportionately, that is) if we can keep from massacring any races.

Although in this searching I found the part of the game mechanics saying that just trying to increase fertility with blessings is actually counterproductive. Well then. Back to the less-cop-out methods.

Sidenote: Luminee blood only lasts a certain number of generations, if I understand it right; it doesn't make full-blooded Luminees(besides the point, blargh).
What I was wanting to say is this: This game is not a closed system. The fact is, KJP's natural prejudices, and ours, will seep in. And that's not necessarily bad. We are shaped by our culture. (When I say natural prejudices, I mean the cultural associations we have for things, particularly in fantasy games; Humans are usually the most common race in fantasy games, so they're the most common race here. They're also the one which is probably easiest to understand the thought processes and culture of, and that's difficult enough as it is. They're almost always the baseline, and that's for a reason. It's what we are. It's what we have to scale off of. So it's not about what we specifically did or did not do. In fact, you guys were vague enough that if anything would be a surprise, it would be that there wasn't more stuff leaking in without knowledge. Although maybe there is, for instance, Humans being so susceptible to Void Corruption(might have to do with being unaligned, actually).

[Andres]

Also, at a certain point of 'short-lived' they don't have the necessary lifespan to learn life-skills and develop sentience well. It's not a fast process, coming to understand the world around you and figure out how 'thinking' works. Takes time.

14 months for an RL human baby. Apply that, have them reach sexual maturity at age 5 with entire litters of babies, make em dead at age 20 and BAM! Easy Essence.

[hector13]

Also, at a certain point of 'short-lived' they don't have the necessary lifespan to learn life-skills and develop sentience well. It's not a fast process, coming to understand the world around you and figure out how 'thinking' works. Takes time.

14 months for an RL human baby. Apply that, have them reach sexual maturity at age 5 with entire litters of babies, make em dead at age 20 and BAM! Easy Essence.

No:

Worship: This represents how much genuine respect (whether reverence or fear) sapients have for you, and it contributes to your Essence daily income. Unlike Essence, it represents the rate of worship per turn and cannot be transferred, but deities can affect each other's Worship by affecting their followers. Worship from the extremely long-lived or immortal or extremely powerful is considered to be of lower value, as is Worship from the extremely short-lived or insufficiently sapient. Human-like sapients would probably supply around 1 WU*. Direct mind control nullifies Worship output.

Also, note that it only contributes to your daily essence gain; it isn't the entirety of it.

[Rolepgeek]

Not the basic idea of 'I exist' that a toddler has, Andres. Far more complex than that, unless you think that 4 year old kids are capable of understanding philosophy/the various processes and things relating to being intellectually and spiritually mature? (and thus understanding what and why they are Worshipping...and thus Worship Quality...*grins*) Or, hell, 13 year old kids for that matter...

Also, can the Worship Quality modifier/multiplier go above 1, KJP?

[Stirk]

Also, at a certain point of 'short-lived' they don't have the necessary lifespan to learn life-skills and develop sentience well. It's not a fast process, coming to understand the world around you and figure out how 'thinking' works. Takes time.

Nope. It is an in-born trait. They do have to live long enough to learn how to worship to be practical, but they would still be sentient. In fact, by the definitions we are using, even animals are sentient.

And Stirk: You're right, it's not. However, I wasn't trying to do it without context. I'm using wikipedia(blah blah not valid source blah it's close enough for our purposes, given the automatic inaccuracy from a fantasy setting), and the human race's population was about 3-4 Million, from what I'm looking at, from around 10000 BC to 5000 BC, with the (large-scale, at least) terrible organization and technological levels back then. After which, it rose rather steadily to 50 Million over the next 4000 years. And yeah, sure, this is sorta evidence for your point, but A. Magic B. Other races with which to trade with to create a larger and thus more advanced functional economy C. Higher tech levels(pretty sure, anyway), and most importantly

We started out with our creations using rocks as weapons, before we taught them otherwise. They somehow managed to get to medieval tech levels pretty fast, but they where not always like that. It only rose when food-bearing technology appeared, you can see it remaining stable for several hundred years in several points. You understand less about magic then even Andres does, trying to use it as an argument doesn't really help your case. True mages are relatively rare, even now that everyone can use magic. It isn't like they can make every field grow to modern standards without burning out their souls. They have a functional economy, but that really doesn't help raise population. "Tech Levels" aren't a real thing, while some areas the mortals are advanced they are lacking in others. As you may have been able to tell, the Life Lab has pretty much created functional gene-splicing, while nobody really focused on food yielding technology so it stays at a low level.

D. Humans were created, with I think 3 million of them, somewhere around ticks 6-15. It is currently tick 93. I asked somewhere around tick 90. If a tick is on average, say, 10 years, which is a low estimate, I feel, that's about 800 years. If a tick is, say, 40, though, it's more like 3,600. For which the growth certainly makes sense, if compared to real life data.

No, the proposal was for 3 million humanoids. Much of these turned into the Dwarfs and other humanoid races, with only a small portion becoming human. Even then, looking at your chart, there are places where it remains almost perfectly stable and there is no reason to assume that a newly made race has the ability to feed itself perfectly with an amazing working knowlage of agriculture that they are somehow born with. It does not make since with real life data, because you are removing literally every factor from the equation but time. Time isn't the only thing moving those numbers up. You are comparing two completely different worlds, with completely different everything from technology to plants to politics to geographical layout and saying they should be almost exactly the same because of the one thing they have in common.

But again. Magic, and other races. But, you guys have a point; it's not as tremendous a deal as I thought, though with the population being ~100 million at this point, population growth should begin speeding up objectively(not proportionately, that is) if we can keep from massacring any races.

You still don't understand magic. It seems rather strange to call out Andres for assuming things, when you are doing the same yourself, doesn't it? As I said before, magic users at all have been rare up until recently, and even now only a handful can use that magic in impressive fashions. Farmers can't just walk out into their fields, do a little spell, and feed a town. Even trying could destroy their soul.

The population growth has no reason to speed up, so why would it?

What I was wanting to say is this: This game is not a closed system. The fact is, KJP's natural prejudices, and ours, will seep in. And that's not necessarily bad. We are shaped by our culture. (When I say natural prejudices, I mean the cultural associations we have for things, particularly in fantasy games; Humans are usually the most common race in fantasy games, so they're the most common race here. They're also the one which is probably easiest to understand the thought processes and culture of, and that's difficult enough as it is. They're almost always the baseline, and that's for a reason. It's what we are. It's what we have to scale off of. So it's not about what we specifically did or did not do. In fact, you guys were vague enough that if anything would be a surprise, it would be that there wasn't more stuff leaking in without knowledge. Although maybe there is, for instance, Humans being so susceptible to Void Corruption(might have to do with being unaligned, actually).

What? We didn't even want to create humans. We made dozens of races before we made the humans. The only reason we made humans at all is because Andres thought it would be cool to be the god of Humans and he was just sitting around for a few ticks waiting for us to make them so he could play. And we didn't make that many of them. I am pretty sure humans aren't the most populous race, and would appreciate you showing the PMs you seem to have talking about this.

[Rolepgeek]

...From everything I've seen, Cosmic Magic is the only thing that burns out peoples souls on anything resembling a regular basis (by which I mean is something that is actually a concern for the typical mage). Are you trying to tell me that a druid or priest doing a pesticide spell, or a preserve food spell, or a increase growth rate spell, would burn their soul out?

Sentient is a bad word to use. Sapient is the word I'm looking for. And it's not just about it being decent, it's about it being quality. I suspect a good deal of the quality worship comes from the wise old folks who've come to terms with things.

And actually, a lot of it actually has to do with medicinal technology. Disease kills off a lot of people, and this is the main reason I'm talking about magic. Healing magic doesn't exist in real life, yet in the world I believe it's decently common(I have a hard time believing my priests were the first true healers the world had), as far as magic goes anyway.

As far as magic goes, I think that the only one who actually understands how magic in this setting works exactly is KJP. I go off of what I have observed and how magic typically works in fantasy worlds. How rare? How much is impressive?

It has reason to speed up because there's more people reproducing. Not talking percentage wise, was talking flat numbers. Since we go off logarithmic scale for worship, don't make much difference either way.

I'm not even gonna bother with the bit about accusing me of disregarding factors other than time, when it was in a list with other factors, and in fact there were additional factors that should have increased it that I didn't include. And I have noted multiple times things like immigration, available land for use, and the like. I said quite the opposite regarding them being exactly the same, actually...not sure where you're getting that from.

PMS: (they don't include everything I sent because I use PMs for a reason, people)

What is the total population of Keshan, Slytha, Muna, and other assorted things with people on them, to the nearest 10 million?

There are about 50M humans. It's hard to count the rest, but it's probably about that much within a doubling.

Given the number of races there are? I find it hard to believe that being at least a third of the world's population means any other race surpasses them. I didn't say anything about wanting to create Humans, I was just pointing out that because they were created, ideas about them from other sources will seep in.

EDIT: Actually, funny thing: Humans were in the game from the very beginning. I believe Cim's avatar/symbol is described as a human, not just humanoid.

[Stirk]

...From everything I've seen, Cosmic Magic is the only thing that burns out peoples souls on anything resembling a regular basis (by which I mean is something that is actually a concern for the typical mage). Are you trying to tell me that a druid or priest doing a pesticide spell, or a preserve food spell, or a increase growth rate spell, would burn their soul out?

On an industrial level required to feed millions of people without very effective farming technology? Yes.

Sentient is a bad word to use. Sapient is the word I'm looking for. And it's not just about it being decent, it's about it being quality. I suspect a good deal of the quality worship comes from the wise old folks who've come to terms with things.

There you go assuming things again. Where you not insulting Andres for doing the same thing? We have no reason to assume older worshipers are better. It is the same concept, races are sentient not individuals. Unless one gets uplifted or downlifted or something. A one year old is just as sapient as a thousand year old.

And actually, a lot of it actually has to do with medicinal technology. Disease kills off a lot of people, and this is the main reason I'm talking about magic. Healing magic doesn't exist in real life, yet in the world I believe it's decently common(I have a hard time believing my priests were the first true healers the world had), as far as magic goes anyway.

While advanced medical technology does help raise the total population a bit, it can do nothing to raise the maximum population. In the long run, diseases have very little effect on overall race size unless it is one of the massive plague sent by Gods. Which are immune to magic anyway. It simply doesn't matter how many births are successful if there is no food to feed the newborns.

As far as magic goes, I think that the only one who actually understands how magic in this setting works exactly is KJP. I go off of what I have observed and how magic typically works in fantasy worlds. How rare? How much is impressive?

Exactly. You assume. An earlier conversation said that 30% having any magical ability at all was too much by far, and of those only a small amount had impressive skills. KJP is the only one who knows the exact numbers.

It has reason to speed up because there's more people reproducing. Not talking percentage wise, was talking flat numbers. Since we go off logarithmic scale for worship, don't make much difference either way.

Worship values simply have not changed, unless a new race was created or a lot of effort was put into converting. If we go by that logic, all the races are currently at the same numbers they where created/propagated to. There are more people reproducing, but that still doesn't matter if there is no food for them. We play in a world where there is a God of Hunger but no God of Harvest.

I'm not even gonna bother with the bit about accusing me of disregarding factors other than time, when it was in a list with other factors, and in fact there were additional factors that should have increased it that I didn't include. And I have noted multiple times things like immigration, available land for use, and the like. I said quite the opposite regarding them being exactly the same, actually...not sure where you're getting that from.

*Sigh, sad headshake* Yes. And that is a further problem. I am saying that you are comparing apples to oranges because the worlds are far to different to compare effectively. Most the things I mentioned where not even negative. It is the "Pirates prevent global warming" thing. You are keeping your eyes on one factor and ignoring the rest, both good and bad. The two worlds are too different to compare to each other.

Given the number of races there are? I find it hard to believe that being at least a third of the world's population means any other race surpasses them. I didn't say anything about wanting to create Humans, I was just pointing out that because they were created, ideas about them from other sources will seep in.

That doesn't mean humans make up 50% of the population. That means "All races have about the same amount of people, or double."

**
Or, I suppose, it could mean "Each other race has about 10~20 million", given your question. Which would not make humans anywhere near the 1/2 the population you think it is. Simply, your statements do not match the answer he gave you.

[Rolepgeek]

...From everything I've seen, Cosmic Magic is the only thing that burns out peoples souls on anything resembling a regular basis (by which I mean is something that is actually a concern for the typical mage). Are you trying to tell me that a druid or priest doing a pesticide spell, or a preserve food spell, or a increase growth rate spell, would burn their soul out?

On an industrial level required to feed millions of people without very effective farming technology? Yes.

Which is why a single mage isn't doing it for millions of people. It's not about doing it on an industrial level, it's about doing it at all. Or setting up self-supporting systems. So I'm gonna have to disagree with you as to that burning out souls. If mages were rare, and based on what I know about Divine magic at the very least, more likely they're doing it for a village's crops, or a towns if they're powerful. And each village and each town might have one, leaving aside the races that don't even need food. On the other hand, Gruen, I suppose. Nothing more needs be said...:/

Sentient is a bad word to use. Sapient is the word I'm looking for. And it's not just about it being decent, it's about it being quality. I suspect a good deal of the quality worship comes from the wise old folks who've come to terms with things.

There you go assuming things again. Where you not insulting Andres for doing the same thing? We have no reason to assume older worshipers are better. It is the same concept, races are sentient not individuals. Unless one gets uplifted or downlifted or something. A one year old is just as sapient as a thousand year old.[/quote]
You have a weird idea of the word insult. You also have a weird idea of the word assume. 'Suspect' means I think it might be true but I'm not working off that as a basic idea. It makes sense to me, particularly given the fact that short-lived races don't give as much Worship Quality. Since I believe I remember KJP(or was it you?) saying something about long-lived races giving less because the more powerful something is and the closer it is to Godhood the less worship it gives, the lower the quality of it's worship, and immortality is an aspect of god-hood.

While advanced medical technology does help raise the total population a bit, it can do nothing to raise the maximum population. In the long run, diseases have very little effect on overall race size unless it is one of the massive plague sent by Gods. Which are immune to magic anyway. It simply doesn't matter how many births are successful if there is no food to feed the newborns.

Really? Did you forget the tick where Darruthian priests were shown to have quite a bit of success in healing the sick during one of those plagues? Yes, food is important. But so is medical technology; the better the medical technology, the better the chance the mother survives to have additional children, the better the chance the babies survive to grow up to have kids.

Exactly. You assume. An earlier conversation said that 30% having any magical ability at all was too much by far, and of those only a small amount had impressive skills. KJP is the only one who knows the exact numbers.

30% isn't 'rare' to me. That's 'less than common' to me. 'Rare' to me means one in a hundred, one in a thousand, one in ten thousand. You don't need 'impressive skills' to keep some grain from spoiling for a few months longer.

Worship values simply have not changed, unless a new race was created or a lot of effort was put into converting. If we go by that logic, all the races are currently at the same numbers they where created/propagated to. There are more people reproducing, but that still doesn't matter if there is no food for them. We play in a world where there is a God of Hunger but no God of Harvest.

...I don't actually think that's the case, but your second point is a good one.

*Sigh, sad headshake* Yes. And that is a further problem. I am saying that you are comparing apples to oranges because the worlds are far to different to compare effectively. Most the things I mentioned where not even negative. It is the "Pirates prevent global warming" thing. You are keeping your eyes on one factor and ignoring the rest, both good and bad. The two worlds are too different to compare to each other.

So what else are we to use as a basis? Something must be used for comparison, and the only thing we have that's realistic is reality. I try looking at all the factors and looking and why they would be equal or why they would be different, rather than assuming they would be so different as to make it impossible to tell...as you appear to be doing. Perhaps I simply misinterpret you.

That doesn't mean humans make up 50% of the population. That means "All races have about the same amount of people, or double."

**
Or, I suppose, it could mean "Each other race has about 10~20 million", given your question. Which would not make humans anywhere near the 1/2 the population you think it is. Simply, your statements do not match the answer he gave you.

I disagree. I asked what the total population was, not what the total population of each race was. When he said 'the rest' I am quite sure he was talking about the rest of the races together. However, arguing the semantics of the GM's answer is rather useless when we can simply ask him when he returns.

[Stirk]

Which is why a single mage isn't doing it for millions of people. It's not about doing it on an industrial level, it's about doing it at all. Or setting up self-supporting systems. So I'm gonna have to disagree with you as to that burning out souls. If mages were rare, and based on what I know about Divine magic at the very least, more likely they're doing it for a village's crops, or a towns if they're powerful. And each village and each town might have one, leaving aside the races that don't even need food. On the other hand, Gruen, I suppose. Nothing more needs be said...:/

So a single mage is just supposed to feed thousands of people? There is simply not enough powerful mortal mages to do such a thing. You do not know a lot about Divine magic, or other magic in general. It is rare enough that not every city can't have a mage who can magic up thousands of plants at once.

You have a weird idea of the word insult. You also have a weird idea of the word assume. 'Suspect' means I think it might be true but I'm not working off that as a basic idea. It makes sense to me, particularly given the fact that short-lived races don't give as much Worship Quality. Since I believe I remember KJP(or was it you?) saying something about long-lived races giving less because the more powerful something is and the closer it is to Godhood the less worship it gives, the lower the quality of it's worship, and immortality is an aspect of god-hood.

Suspect and assume are synonyms. Short lived races give off more worship quality then long lived ones, even those that arn't technically immortal. There is a sweet spot. Just because it makes since to you doesn't mean that is how it is, and that isn't exactly a solid thing to build on.

Really? Did you forget the tick where Darruthian priests were shown to have quite a bit of success in healing the sick during one of those plagues? Yes, food is important. But so is medical technology; the better the medical technology, the better the chance the mother survives to have additional children, the better the chance the babies survive to grow up to have kids.

Yes? The plagues where specifically mentioned to be resistant to the current magic. It killed 75% of the infected races before you managed to even do anything about it...

30% isn't 'rare' to me. That's 'less than common' to me. 'Rare' to me means one in a hundred, one in a thousand, one in ten thousand. You don't need 'impressive skills' to keep some grain from spoiling for a few months longer.

30% being WAY TO HIGH (should I have cap'sed it last time?) for ANY MAGIC USE AT ALL. The mortals already have access to alcohol and other storage methods, grains going bad isn't much of an issue. Grains growing at all is.

So what else are we to use as a basis? Something must be used for comparison, and the only thing we have that's realistic is reality. I try looking at all the factors and looking and why they would be equal or why they would be different, rather than assuming they would be so different as to make it impossible to tell...as you appear to be doing. Perhaps I simply misinterpret you.

They are so different it is impossible to tell logically. There are countless factors that make them too different to be relevant to one another. Is there a reason you have to compare it to something?

I disagree. I asked what the total population was, not what the total population of each race was. When he said 'the rest' I am quite sure he was talking about the rest of the races together. However, arguing the semantics of the GM's answer is rather useless when we can simply ask him when he returns.

So you think that "that or double" meant that there are only 50million mortals, and that they are all human? That wording simply doesn't make since if it applied to all races.

And the "waiting for the GM" thing could count for this whole conversation, but I have nothing better to do.

[Andres]

30% of people had access to at least cantrips. The percent of people who were professional mages was much lower.

The way I see it, Humans were the default sapient race of the Bubble, even before they were created, ironically. Cim's form was of a Human and so was Tykki. Then Azem decided to actually make this stock creation into a proper race. That's the Watsonian reason, any way. /GUESS - NOT ASSUMPTION

[hector13]

I like how you feel you have to clarify you're not making assumptions

[gman8181]

Say what you want but I'm like 90% sure the Gruen species could wipe out all the others in the bubble assuming no godly intervention on either side. I could care less if some gods and angels looked human early on and it makes no difference that some species came before the Gruen.

The view that humans should be the default species or that they are in any way the most superior is borderline silly to me and I personally view their creation in this game as no more important or significant than any other.

[Stirk]

Say what you want but I'm like 90% sure the Gruen species could wipe out all the others in the bubble assuming no godly intervention on either side. I could care less if some gods and angels looked human early on and it makes no difference that some species came before the Gruen.

The view that humans should be the default species or that they are in any way the most superior is borderline silly to me and I personally view their creation in this game as no more important or significant than any other.

I don't know, the Armu-Seppo-Hovori could definitely give them a run for their money. Giant tentacle monsters with hundreds of weapons, who are also alive as Sinjo, who can have broken appendages instantly repaired and clear up with (now safer and more powerful!) Godly magic while their buddies make special anti-Gruen weapons. And that is if they manage to get past the not-entirly-cannon-fodder Vindico protecting the towns with (new and improved!) chainbows that explode on contact.

[hector13]

The view that humans should be the default species or that they are in any way the most superior is borderline silly to me and I personally view their creation in this game as no more important or significant than any other.

+1