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Hahahahahaha!

7 (41.2%)

Nooooooooooo!

10 (58.8%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Andres]

Stick to first argument then? The second one was intended to be an optional extension.

[gman8181]

Shrug.

Personally I just don't see why a separate set of rules for uncreating compared to perma-killing is needed.

Not sure if I'm missing the point though.

I'm also concerned about uncreating becoming just a very direct and somewhat uncreative means of perma-killing. By that I mean instead of finding a difficult opponent, planning out a way of defeating them, then finding a way to perma-kill them. One might just say "uncreate y for x essence" and then be done with it.

Edit:

Like I shouldn't just be able to use it by saying "Uncreate HoDo killer for however much essence it costs."

[DreamerGhost]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Golems
Magma well
Moon orbiting main planet on Keshan
Castle hearth
3 Puzzle boxes with artifacts inside.
Race of chameleonic spiders with quick working neurotoxin (for treasure island)
Keeper of the Divine Library
Rune magic that affects buildings only
Kyloth+equipment
Frozen fortress on a mountain with an obelisk inside.
300 massive worm like creatures that would tunnel through earth or sand, leaving tunnels in their wake. They would feed upon metal ores and excrete pure metals.
Afterlife, named Plane of Creations Past
Pm spiders

I think that is all. Anything left out is either entirely irrelevant or no longer there. I wrote things as I remembered/found them, so the list is not in a chronological order. Should I make it in chronological order?

Edit: there are also gremlins and 5 angels, yet those were created from raw templates that were already there.

[Andres]

Like I shouldn't just be able to use it by saying "Uncreate HoDo killer for however much essence it costs."

Uncreating a being still requires the assistance of three other gods, so it's still complicated.

[Kilojoule Proton]

Spoiler: Creation: (click to show/hide)

Linear: 2
Log: 2
Quadratic: 1 (Lagging)
Sqrt: 3 (Leading)
Intuition: 3 (Leading)
[spoiler=Upgrade:]
Linear: 1(Lagging)
Log: 2
Quadratic: 3 (Leading)
Sqrt: 1 (Lagging)
Intuition: 4 (Leading)

Ama, DreamerGhost: Creations added to list. Chronological order isn't that significant, so it's fine. The main thing including timestamps does is it allows me to search for the creation far more easily.

$$$Response
Magical sapphire spear of ice: Is it made of sapphires or is it made of ice or is it made of both? What does it do?
Uncreation: Roughly creation cost with upgrades
The entity known as Tykki will be permanently uncreated. Ununcreating spawns an ever-so-slightly different clone (seeing as the unique template was uncreated, there wouldn't be a significant price hike). I think this balances not restricting actions and preventing cheap tricks sufficiently well.
Perma-killing: You subverted this at least once, and that seriously undermines and devalues the perma- prefix. This will also require further consideration, but I am leaning toward interpreting attempts at recreation as violating the Ersatz rule in some way.
Perma-uncreating: I'm a bit nervous about having a set price for this given how protective everyone will probably be about possible variations in price. I'll think about it a little more.

The in-game justification for the collaboration requirement for uncreation is that removing everything about the target and uncreating it is extremely complicated and difficult to do. It's almost like the difference between an apoptotic cell and a detergent-lysed one. In the former case, it's fairly neat and orderly and keeps nasty things organized and safe. In the latter case, various dangerous components can potentially leak out, endangering nearby cells. There's probably a better analogy somewhere, but I'm not that good at coming up with them. The meta-game justification is that I don't want the richer gods to uncreate the corporeal dimension just because they got bored trivially.

[gman8181]

Uncreating a being still requires the assistance of three other gods, so it's still complicated.

I guess. I just don't like the limitations it imposes regarding the inability to recreate something you like if you lose it. Honestly I'm not even particularly fond of Perma-Killing. My ideal "Perma-Kill Penalty" would just be that you can't recreate something with the same memories. Not that you can't recreate something that's otherwise identical with the same personality and even name.

So kind of like what you did IC before with your two angels except I don't think they should have been allowed to regain memories. Only personalities. Edit: abilities and skills too, just not memories.

[Vgray]

Hm. Made of sapphire and the tip freezes anything it comes into contact with.

And I just realized why that is bad. Hm.

[Kilojoule Proton]

I wonder if this has anything to do with that desert...

$$$Response
Magical sapphire spear of freezing (not too magical): 2E

[gman8181]

The meta-game justification is that I don't want the richer gods to uncreate the corporeal dimension just because they got bored trivially.

This is where I get confused. If three gods work together, they could uncreate the corporeal dimension together with enough essence theoretically. I alone, with a similar amount of essence, would not but wouldn't I be capable of doing enough damage with that kind of essence that it would destroy the corporeal dimension anyway if unopposed? That's kind of where I feel like the whole topic is odd. So maybe depending on how it's implemented, the only difference is that no one would be able to recreate reality if it was permanently uncreated but they could recreate it if I just destroyed it? Or it's harder to defend against uncreation than destruction?

I feel like just regular destruction already fills in fine for uncreation. The latter only adds more limitations and shortcuts that feel sort of unneeded to me. The uncreation idea in the first place just seems like a method of destroying things without actually destroying things and then limiting recreation of them which I don't particularly like the concept of.

[Kilojoule Proton]

I don't really know either. I'm a bit doubtful on whether uncreation is a good mechanic to implement at this point given how much insanity may result from spite and over-competitiveness. I need some time to think of the consequences of the price especially, because it's either far too expensive or far too cheap for too many classes of things. It would probably help if you all could try joining in and calmly discussing it, because it'll affect you as a whole a lot more than it affects me.

Maybe it would work if uncreation were treated as nothing more than a special case of destruction? It still seems somewhat unimaginative and possibly disruptive to have something that completely bypasses other considerations. I won't stop you all if you all want it that way, but it just seems a bit strange after further consideration.

It is at this point that I turn to more experienced competitive-game GMs (i.e. those with any previous experience at all, seeing as I had none before this) for advice.

[Vgray]

$$$
Matching sapphire shield of freezing.

Let's see, creations, creatures first, I should be able to remember them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mountwyrms
Gem Dragons
Humans count right?
Dwarves
Giant golden silk orb-weavers (With venomous variety for the treasure island)
Black Dragons (For the treasure island)
Golden apple ents with healing sap (See above)

[Andres]

Maybe uncreation should be a controlled form of destruction? When you destroy something you destroy something, but when you uncreate something you destroy it but you also stabilise it in such a way that nothing is affected.

Perma-killing: You subverted this at least once, and that seriously undermines and devalues the perma- prefix.

One of us managed to get passed a permakill!? How? When?

[gman8181]

My opinion:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Uncreation" and "Perma-Death" should be a singular concept termed Uncreat(ion)(ing)(ed) for convenience. Uncreating should be the act of destroying the essence of something and eliminating its essence/matter/energy from existence. It should, like any other method of attack, be something that can be defended against. It should not occur across all time so that we have to act like the Uncreated creation never existed. It did exist and its Uncreation has only destroyed its essence in the present, not its past existence. Destroying a creation's past existence should not be possible. Messing with the past in general should not be possible due to game breaking effects and giving everyone head aches. Time travel should still be possible since time manipulation plays an integral role in the game's lore but during time travel, one should not be able to do anything with the exception of observing and moving about. (This part at least is seriously for balance and avoiding any game breaking and migraines).

Uncreating something should not prevent recreating something identical to it. It should however prevent exact duplication in terms of soul and memory. An Uncreated being that is recreated would be made of completely new essence and thus lack the memories of the old one. It could be given the same skills, powers, personality, etc of the old one but this should ideally be more expensive than just resurrecting something that died but was not Uncreated. (My reasoning for being able to sort of recreate the Uncreated is because honestly I don't see why we should be limited in making something we already could make. It's also a blurry line. If the Devourer was Uncreated, I would create a new Archangel of Hunger. I would then want to give it similar abilities because they are effective and many tailor to my sphere. Where would the non recreation aspect of the rules apply? Would I no longer be able to create Archangels of Hunger? Would I no longer be able to create an Archangel with the same abilities? Would I be able to create something with the same abilities but with a different appearance and not call it an angel? Would I be able to create something with completely different abilities and appearance but the same personality and name? Overall, it's a really hard to define and apply kind of rule with lots of potential limitations, loopholes and murky areas. Simply defining it so that it's more expensive to recreate than resurrect and that memories can't be transferred seems an appropriate effect of Uncreation that applies appropriate penalties to the target but does not impose excess limitations on players.)

We could say the laws of energy conservation do not apply here and essence represents energy. In this game universe, essence can be created and destroyed, so any creation can be unmade by unmaking its essence. I just feel that doing this shouldn't be an absolutely powerful means of destroying things or preventing their return. Like any other method of destruction, it should be balanced with unique benefits and disadvantages. I think it would be fitting for its primary use to be against creations that can't normally be killed like respawning angels. Instead of just killing the body, it could be used to destroy the very essence of the angel and prevent return but not recreation of a similar angel. This would be beneficial to the one using Uncreation because it would cause more loss of resources to the other god. Killing an angel under normal conditions using an explosion costing 5 essence would be a net loss because the enemy angel would come back for free over time. Killing the angel with 10 essence using Uncreation would be more expensive but would force the enemy god to recreate the angel if they wanted it badly enough. Say the angel cost 10 essence to create and Uncreate. They created it once for 10 essence, you destroy it for 10 essence. They rebuild it for 10. They are now at a loss of 10 essence compared to before when the attacker was at loss for 5 essence. The higher effectiveness and cost thus balance out.

Uncreation should not be something anyone can fully defend against. I should not be able to purchase Uncreation resistance for an angel. However, other techniques should be available. If I target a god's angel for Uncreation, they should be able to block it through a possibly greater essence expenditure. Non god's capable of using Essence should likewise be capable of blocking with held essence (To my knowledge these are rare anyway and they seldom can hold anything significant so it's unlikely to be seen). Uncreation should require knowledge of the target's location. Also other interesting ideas like say tying a creation's essence to an object should be expensive but require destruction of object prior to Uncreation. This should be balanced by tracking abilities.

Finally, current methods of perma-killing should henceforth be considered methods of Uncreation.

One of us managed to get passed a permakill!? How? When?

You did something similar to my suggestions in this thread. When two of your major angels were perma-killed you created new ones with the same names and powers. You then transferred memories of the old angels into the new ones to make them for most purposes identical. I'm fine with this technique up until the last part which under my proposed rules shouldn't be possible. I'm against memory transplants from Uncreated or missing persons to currently present persons. To an extent though, I'm fine with an angel being more or less aware of anything its god knows. So the new angel could be aware of the old angels and things about them but shouldn't actually have their memory.

[Andres]

The difference between permakilling and perma-uncreating is that permakilling leaves a body. Something that ought to be considered is that a killed or uncreated character can be revived or recreated. A permakilled or uncreated character cannot. Reviving/recreating is cheaper than creating, or at least that's how I think it should be (maybe because of the propagation clause?)

When two of your major angels were perma-killed you created new ones with the same names and powers.

They weren't permakilled. They were just killed. If they were permakilled there would've been a suffix that said (perma) like when Tory and Lee were killed in the Second Crusade by Tykki.

An alternative to all this is we simply get rid of the idea of permanence. Perma just seems to be an arbitrary thing we created and its existence isn't justified in any in-game way. I think we should actually go with this idea.

Maybe uncreation could simply be a method of killing? Yeah. That's pretty simple. No fancy-pants memory stuff or whatever - just ending that particular being.

EDIT: Yes, Stirk, I fully understand that the memory thing was my idea. There are actually people out there who can realise that something they said might've been wrong and are honest enough to call themselves out on it. Besides that, I said from the beginning that the memory thing was a less than optimal solution.

[Quartz_Mace]

$$$Price Check$$$
Creating my own angel who is a fire-breathing dragon?(with no wings)