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[Rolan7]

If only there were a way to only make the relatively harmless ghost types.  According to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Ghost the type is based highly on personality traits.  Certain values have no chance of producing a malicious ghost on death (except through strange moods or insanity).  I don't know if that's possible to control indefinitely, though.  I don't think those traits are hereditary...  Maybe babies don't produce ghosts, and could be culled if they have the potential to produce malicious ghosts.

Or maybe dwarfs can be washed out of the embark by flowing water?  I seem to remember someone reporting that a while ago...  With a fortification on the edge, maybe.  Surely that won't leave a ghost.

I'm pretty sure I had something else to suggest, but all I can think of is that flowing water apparently pushes them.  I don't see how that could produce a permanent, truly inescapable containment though.

[Dwarf4Explosives]

Babies do produce ghosts. I once read a memorable example of a mother being attacked by her own baby's ghost. I do think it's possible to wash dwarfs off the embark.

But if you want a truly permanent fort, you really need vampires, preferably with friendly personality traits. I'd suggest killing and burying all of them that do not have those traits.

[Uronym]

But if you want a truly permanent fort, you really need vampires, preferably with friendly personality traits. I'd suggest killing and burying all of them that do not have those traits.

Accidents will happen, even to vampires. Surely you would want a fertile population to replenish any losses.

[Linkxsc]

Well my fort has started to come along ive made it to winter without much incedent, and am up to 13 dwarves. Most of the surface is devoid of trees and other plant life, the 2 growing floors are fully carved out, so is the 48x48 boundary. 1/4th of the housing floor is complete,the housing floor will support 160 dwarves. any others than that will probably be children which will all be kept in a daycare room that isnt yet to be built.
Also (though there wont be much fighting) in the carving out of the outline of the dining room, i noticed large iron and gold deposits.

When the 3rd migration wave comes, thats when ill seal the place off. If it puts me over 25 dwarves im sure ill be good, the first couple years will consist on finishing out the housing floor, adding a set of barracks rooms for training (not like there will be much else to do trapped down here) the dining room, and lots and lots of farming. (Everyone in the fort is probably gonna be legendary farmers before this is all over.)
After all my current planning, ill have 4 floors of space for coffins/slabs. 48x48 minus a 4x4 square in the middle.
Guesstimation based on the guy on page 2s numbers, ive easily got 14000 years of dwarfing to do. Also that equates to about 2 years realtime at 100fps.

[faceshed]

Ok. I went ahead and tried to set a capsule up. I've been cheating some things into the game with dfhack and I got most of it set up, but I hit a snag when it came to the obsidian farm. My map has no magma pools to seal in with it. I've never seen one so I'm not sure how to fake them in with dfhack and after reading more about them I started wondering if they work like I thought.

I'm having trouble finding information about the confusingly named "magma flow" tile that generates more magma. It sounds like it only exists over semi-molten rock so I guess I have to use the semi-molten rock as part of the capsule wall?

I also thought more about highly unlikely events. I think breeding is based on chance so that means after some time the meat/leather industry would fail unless you can make 2 vampire armadillos.
vampire armadillos.
Maybe werebeasts? I guess vampires don't need to eat so it wouldn't be that big of a deal missing out on food, even over an infinite amount of time, but if you wanted to somehow control ghosts it would be impossible. Even if you had an infinite stock of food dwarf breeding is random so they would all eventually die.

If you can make werebeast animals can someone teach me how to do it with dfhack so I can run tests on that? Thanks guys.

[Uronym]

According to the wiki, if you restrict the number of dwarves eligible for the creation of an artifact to less than 20, you will not have to worry about artifacts. That means you would not have to have an eternally renewable supply of shells, leather, gems, or other unimportant trash treasures. All you would need then is food, drink, and cloth, which can all be provided by the farming of pig tails and any other crop of your choice for food.

Keeping a population under 20 dwarves may be somewhat difficult, though, with the new reproduction mechanics. A steady population of 20 dwarves would be spread evenly between an age of 0 and roughly 160 (birth to death). Returning to our deaths per year equation also gives us the births per year: 20 dwarves will be born, and 20 dwarves will die every 160 years, for a rate of 0.125 births or deaths per year; in other words, a dwarf would be born every 8 years.

While it is already difficult to get compatible dwarves to breed, keeping such a low number makes it even harder! If a dwarf is born every 8 years, then for each dwarf, there are only 2 dwarves within the 10-year age difference limit for marriage (one 8 years older, one 8 years younger). Taking into account that half will be male and half will be female, there is only, on average, a single eligible partner for each dwarf, even disregarding their preferences!

With the new preferences system, only 75%^[1] of dwarves will be interested in a child-bearing marriage. With all of these numbers, we can finally reach some practical conclusions:

• For any given dwarf of reproductive age (assuming they are not the youngest or the oldest such dwarf), there is a 75% chance that there will be an eligible partner, disregarding preferences.^[2]
• Taking preferences into account, only 75% of the eligible partners will actually be accepted by the dwarf. Further, there is only a 75% chance that the potential partner would be interested back!
• Therefore, for each dwarf of reproductive age (assuming they are not the youngest or the oldest such dwarf), there is only a 42.1875%^[3] chance that there will be a partner who would actually marry!

I have heard that it is very difficult to even get compatible dwarves to marry. I may have forgotten something or erred such that the odds are even worse. Ultimately, the figures mean that, assuming you could get the dwarves to marry when another compatible dwarf is available, there will be, in all likelihood, no more than 4 couples in a fortress with a stable population of 20. Hopefully, they don't have any trouble with inbreeding, because everyone will be related in very short order.

Finally, we can calculate the chances that an entire 160 year cycle goes without producing compatible dwarves, leading to extinction. At any given time, there could ideally be 9 couples (roughly 2 dwarves will be children at any given time). Each couple has a 57.8125%^[4] of not actually ever becoming a couple. Put this to the ninth power (for how many times it would have to fail), and you get 0.7214326%. In other words, for each 160 years (yielding ideally 9 unique couples), there is a 1 in 139^[5] chance that no more dwarves will marry and reproduce.

So, it might not actually be that bad. A fort with a stable population of 20 dwarves will, on average, be able to last 11120 years^[6] before falling to "dwarven breeding problems". It sounds like a reasonably viable way to avoid the problem of artifacts.

Footnotes:
1. I think.
2. In other words, there is a 25% chance (0.5 × 0.5 = 0.25) that both dwarves within the age range will be the same gender and thus useless to us.
3. In other words, the chances are 0.75 × 0.75 × 0.75, or 0.75³.
4. Inverse of the chance above.
5. Rounded.
6. Assuming all calculations are correct.

[faceshed]

Hey Uronym. don't dwarves get immunity to strange moods after the first time? I thought I saw that on the wiki, but I can't find it now.

Anyway if you wanted to skip the artifacts, couldn't you just flood the map with magma and lock 19 dwarves in a nice room with metal armor for clothes. Would migrants even come if there was no space for them? Anyway your vampires could spend any amount of time perfecting the art of throwing parties without food or get comforted by mists of water they can't drink or.... standing.

[Uronym]

While strange moods only happen once per dwarf, if your fort relies on non-vampire dwarves to reproduce, then your population is constantly rotating out, meaning you have to have endless artifacts (at least until you hit the other artifact caps as described on the wiki). This is why a population of 19 would be ideal; a constant, reproducing stream of dwarves that do not need to make artifacts.

Of course, vampires last forever, so you would only have to deal with as many artifacts as you have vampires, then be done with it. But isn't that boring? What if a vampire dies? You will never be able to replace them!

[Koremu]

Eventually, you have a gloomy fortress subsisting on plump helmets and clothed in coarse pig tail cloth, with large areas sealed off due to fluid errors or unkillable FBs.  Of course, then one day a rebellious young dwarf will flee the oppressive society into a sealed tunnel, find that the FBs trapped beyond generations ago had killed each other off, recover a wondrous set of steel armor and a sword from the corpse of his great-great-grandfather who died fending them off long enough to seal the tunnel, plus a mysterious magic item long forgotten except in old children's tales, the "pick" - it lets the user *go through walls*, and can even carve new staircases up!  Drunk with the power, and yet knowing that the fate of his fortress depends on finding new places for slabs, he digs up, and discovers a strange world of dangers, wonder, and possibility, the "surface". 

Perhaps this is how we get our first YA novel inspired by DF (and innumerable pseudo-SF stories from the '60s and '70s)

Or, perhaps, a darker tale; the slab crisis has progressed even further.  Dead dwarves are not slabbed unless they turn out to be exceptionally dangerous; the forlorn haunts far outnumber the living.  All automated systems are long defunct due to poltergeists messing with levers and misplacing mechanisms, and huge areas are unlivable due to fluid systems gone awry with no remaining means of repair.  Our brooding protagonist flees as before, but after grabbing the gear digs up and encounters the legendary Seventh Founder, sealed away for a crime so unspeakable that it's no longer known... and still alive, or some semblance of such, a slow moving, mad vampire in a hermetic tomb.  After accidentally tasting the Blood of the Founder in the process of killing it with his shiny steel sword, he realizes in a desperate incident (perhaps digging up into an aquifer) that he no longer needs to breathe or eat, will not die, and that the only long-term salvation for his fortress lies in him bringing the Blood of the Founder to all dwarves, whether they are willing or not.  After devastating the old power structure in one, final, round of bloodshed with his dark strength and bright sword, converting those he could and slaughtering those he could not before they bred another, disastrous round of ghosts, he rules the new fortress.  And, eventually, as the seasons and years pass, realizes that he hungers, *always*; that there is no new *anything*, including dwarves; and the fort fades into the darkness of eternity, ruled by an angst-ridden teen brooding on a throne of blood.

*Masterwork applause*

[Linkxsc]

Hey there sorry for necroposting a bit. Just wanted to pop in and show how my fort has been coming along. My initial one died within the first 3 years due to a tantrum spiral (and had no jail prepared to help deal with it)

Started a new 1 and am a little bit along. I'd play this game more, but its a little bit of agreement with myself to only play dwarves while on work trips (so I don't burn myself out, and I cycle it with some other games)

But here are some screenies of the fort as it is not. I'm still using 2012 since 2014 locks up on my laptop a lot., I'll just link to the imgur cause my phone i being wonky.
http://imgur.com/W5pKciw&YnXCdof&euxx34p&fUsIrkr&O1tl3kF&5F50LuA&ybmoeNM&CyjJlxF#0 I apologize for the poor cropping on 2 of the images also, I just suck some days

The images aren't actually in order because trying to upload and organize with my phone is horrible. But heres the fort in a nutshell.

Its 18 of galena, year 7. The first 3 waves of migrants were allowed into the fort for dwarfpower, but from now on, we will be sealed in until the end of time. The fort is being built on a 2x2 embark, the fort itself is however going to be equivalent to 10 floors of 1x1 embark (a 48x48)

z=0 Surface has a building that I "fastdwarfed" in to seal myself down without much trouble, I also took the effort to build a wall that later surface dwellers could remove to get some wood to start their own lives, but they'll have to live without digging (ever)

z-1-2 is a simple 2x2 up down stair, I put this gap here because I couldn't do 48x48 on this level without running into a lake.

z-3 is the first floor of the fortress. It, just like the next 2 floors is split up into numerous 6x6 rooms. And since its 100% soil, its going to be my main farming floor. Supporting every subterranean crop. The left side includes a room that was used to fill a room on the floor below with water from the lake above. I do have a bridge system that can allow me to open up and refill the water supply. And I have been having throughts of expanding the water supply to 2 rooms, with some pumps to filter the water back and forth to remove contaminants.

z-4 is also a clear open floor, this for right now will primarily be to grow trees, as once my supply of lignite and surface wood run out, I'm going to need all the wood I can get. Left side includes the current 1 water storage room. Thinking of adding a second 1. If I do that, I'll put some ramps in it also so dwarves can use it for bathing.

z-5 is the current manufacturing floor. with the left producing more trees. In my rush to get underground, I've opted to use a minecart stockpile that takes everything but food. Right now though, my primary production is taken up by clothesmaking, which includes dyeing.

z-6 is my dining hall. Not complete yet, and my 1 (to be master) engraver isn't even close yet, but it'll be legendary in a couple years.

z-7 is the first multipurpose floor. The right side will be barracks, top left is to grow birds and pigs (might need to expand that in the future)
And the bottom left will be for housing the children, and act as the hospital. Kids don't get assigned rooms. They can stay in the kids room or sleep on the floor. Not completed yet though, cause I ran out of wood for beds.

z-8 contains the jail (hopefully I can save myself this time with a bit of help) each cell is set up with its own food/drink stockpiles (All the prepared meals are routed here first), and there are chains there, however I'm training up a metalsmith to turn the small supply of gold I have into high quality chains. The right bit there is my garbage disposal. We managed to get a kabold in early on when I opened the surface to let a migrant wave in. But he got mauled by 1 of my miners, and didn't get a chance to lay a finger on anything. His knife will be a relic for the ages however.

z-9-10-11 are all floors that haven't been carved out yet, eventually these will be filled with hundreds of slabs, and I may turn a couple of the sections into useful rooms of some sort (suggestions? A nice temple/statue garden would be fun)

z-12 is the bedroom level. Noone gets real great furnishings here, just a hole in the wall, a bed and a coffer (when they are eventually done)
But aside from a tantrum spiral, there shouldnt be too much to make my dwarves unhappy. I can fit 160 in there. When the hospital/dorm is done that should support about 40-50, and each of the barracks will handle 10. so I could be able to handle up to 300 dwarves in this fort without too much floor sleeping. I also have the ring around every floor (dictating the 48x48) that I can use somehow.

But yeah thats my fort right now. Most of my production is making more tables/chairs for the dining hall, lots and lots of brewing, clothesmaking (which right now means bags, bags, and more bags. But some are dyed a nice shade of blue) and working on that metalsmithing.
As time goes on I'll start throttling back on the production (once I have a few 1000 extra meals/drinks) and just let everyone loligag about falling in love and such. when the second generation start to take hold and come of age, I'll start splitting them up into groups and puttign them through various military trainings.

Still don't know how to deal with the future migrant waves though. I got 1, which I'm going to try and keep alive with surface crops and lots and lots of woodcutting, but its problematic so far since none of them came with gathering skills. Have been plotting to build a grand aboveground fort for them. In a little bit I'll be able to roof them in, though I have been thinking of opening the outer wall of the seal to let them in out of the rain.

33 underground with 1 child, and 9 are on the surface currently. We'll see how this progresses as I stay on this work trip. ANy suggestions for what I should do with some of the extra spaes are welcome. I do plan to stop the quantum stockpiling eventually, but my laptop is really garbage, and even on normal forts its almost necessary to QS to not have abyssmal framerates.

[Wolfhunter107]

Maybe you could make them statue gardens or suchlike ?

[Rolan7]

In another thread someone discovered that dwarves can be shipped off in cages!  (I would link it but it got majorly sidetracked and locked)

This might be a solution to the problem of burial/slab space.  Dwarves can be caged and shipped off before they hit 150 (the age where death of old age becomes possible).  Trading with caravans carries a risk of interacting with kobolds, but perhaps the cages can be flushed off the map edge by water.

Or maybe it's possible to have no hostiles arrive at all somehow, and just trade the caged dwarves away with the caravans...

[Loud Whispers]

I guess you are right that you can just harvest, but it does mean that you can't use crops that don't grow on your biome. Even if the chance is almost impossible, if it's over an infinite amount of time, the crops you can't collect would all die out sooner or later. Same with beehives.

You'd always be able to find the seeds you need; especially with infinite time. Providing you didn't autocook every seed and plant you collected, of course. With beehives as long as you have one hive set to split you have an infinite supply of bees.

Time capsule works fine yes, you can do automated ones that run all night and so on and so forth.  Vamps are good, were-beasts horrible.  If everyone becomes a werebeast your fort will crumble at next full-moon.

A full werebeast fort does not crumble on full-moon. Werebeasts currently are the sole occupants of my own Fort's doomsday bunker; word of advice though is that though they will never need food, drink (alcoholic or no) they still fill the effects of alcohol withdrawal, hunger, thirst and horror/depression. Werebeasts that are not completely numbed to tragedy are not easily relied upon as they are otherwise just as prone to going insane as normal Dwarves.

Oh yeah, they also chew through furniture and clothing every full moon. They have to be clothed in armour or have a constant supply of clothes. A tree farm would also have to be set up to maintain their furniture (they require no furniture though unless you want them to spar or use a workshop in their off-time, werebeasts never need to sleep as the transformation resets thirst/hunger/drowsiness).

[Dwarf4Explosives]

infinite supply of bees

I feel that this needs to be taken out of context. May I please sig this?

[Loud Whispers]

Of course, bees are always out of context.