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Author Topic: Infinite time capsle fort?  (Read 7994 times)

Miuramir

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2014, 11:31:57 am »

I've been thinking off and on about a similar idea, but not quite as extreme.  My concept is that starting seven are religious outcasts, who believe that the surface and everything there is evil, and that the only way toward eventual salvation is to flee the mountainhome and build a new society that doesn't even know the surface *exists*. 

So, no trade, no surface plants or wood, and everything designed around making as much of society as possible revolve around underground resources that are infinite, renewable, or are at least infinitely recyclable.  I was also trying to avoid use of exploits like remelt amplification and quantum dumping. 

With the right site, you can have infinite water, magma, sand, and clay.  By combination you also get infinite obsidian (stone) and glass, which can also be cut into gems.  A properly constructed underground farming complex can generate renewable food, booze, cloth, and wood indefinitely.  Optionally, carefully chosen animals can provide meat, eggs, leather, bone, and shell; and the farms can produce dyes.  More elaborate systems may be capable of producing spider silk, but I'm uncertain whether this is truly renewable; once the spiders start dying of old age, are they replenished at a sufficient rate?  Getting an ageless FB (or demon...) that generates silk may be a significant long-term investment. 

As you eventually uncover all the available caverns and finish digging the fortress, the strange moods will taper off.  A side effect few consider is that Legendary crafters will be in much shorter supply once past the first generation or few; in combination with the increasing scarcity of metals, this will naturally result in a situation where the weapons and armor produced in the early days will be dramatically better than the every-day ones of later generations. 

Looking forward, leather and/or bone armor and obsidian swords will likely be the default equipment for the military; perhaps a somewhat Aztec-like style might emerge.  The masterwork metal items of yore will be carefully treasured relics, far better than the mundane gear but brought out only in case of extreme need; if lost in combat, they cannot be replaced.  Few if any areas will not be under control of the fortress; lakes whether of water or magma will need drain and refill options to recover valuable items, for instance. 

The slab issue, which I had not considered in detail, will eventually doom such a fort however.  It might take thousands of years, but eventually, the fort will mostly a necropolis, full of memorial slabs everywhere they can possibly be placed.  Unlikely combinations of failures will have damaged the various networks or regenerative systems (e.g. all of a generation of animals are non-breeders, series of unlikely farming failures and bad timing destroy the last seeds of some plant, etc.); the animal systems are the most likely to go. 

Eventually, you have a gloomy fortress subsisting on plump helmets and clothed in coarse pig tail cloth, with large areas sealed off due to fluid errors or unkillable FBs.  Of course, then one day a rebellious young dwarf will flee the oppressive society into a sealed tunnel, find that the FBs trapped beyond generations ago had killed each other off, recover a wondrous set of steel armor and a sword from the corpse of his great-great-grandfather who died fending them off long enough to seal the tunnel, plus a mysterious magic item long forgotten except in old children's tales, the "pick" - it lets the user *go through walls*, and can even carve new staircases up!  Drunk with the power, and yet knowing that the fate of his fortress depends on finding new places for slabs, he digs up, and discovers a strange world of dangers, wonder, and possibility, the "surface". 

Perhaps this is how we get our first YA novel inspired by DF (and innumerable pseudo-SF stories from the '60s and '70s) :)

Or, perhaps, a darker tale; the slab crisis has progressed even further.  Dead dwarves are not slabbed unless they turn out to be exceptionally dangerous; the forlorn haunts far outnumber the living.  All automated systems are long defunct due to poltergeists messing with levers and misplacing mechanisms, and huge areas are unlivable due to fluid systems gone awry with no remaining means of repair.  Our brooding protagonist flees as before, but after grabbing the gear digs up and encounters the legendary Seventh Founder, sealed away for a crime so unspeakable that it's no longer known... and still alive, or some semblance of such, a slow moving, mad vampire in a hermetic tomb.  After accidentally tasting the Blood of the Founder in the process of killing it with his shiny steel sword, he realizes in a desperate incident (perhaps digging up into an aquifer) that he no longer needs to breathe or eat, will not die, and that the only long-term salvation for his fortress lies in him bringing the Blood of the Founder to all dwarves, whether they are willing or not.  After devastating the old power structure in one, final, round of bloodshed with his dark strength and bright sword, converting those he could and slaughtering those he could not before they bred another, disastrous round of ghosts, he rules the new fortress.  And, eventually, as the seasons and years pass, realizes that he hungers, *always*; that there is no new *anything*, including dwarves; and the fort fades into the darkness of eternity, ruled by an angst-ridden teen brooding on a throne of blood. 
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smakemupagus

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2014, 11:58:26 am »

Do ghosts come back if you deconstruct their slab?

Baffler

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2014, 12:46:30 pm »

-snip-

Hats off, folks. This guy just won the thread.
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
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Parsely

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2014, 12:47:30 pm »

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Rolan7

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2014, 12:48:57 pm »

Someone once claimed to have a fort that lasted 300 years. I'm skeptical, b/c no evidence was ever posted and I imagine the game would collapse into FPS death after that long no matter what you did.

Still, creating a somewhat automated fort is possible in vanilla - but with the right dfhack plugins you can automate work orders. I suppose theoretically you could use this to keep the fort permanently supplied with food, clothing and crafting supplies, so you could theoretically have an infinite fort. Also recommended; a very, very well stocked hospital and justice system.

It was possible before ghosts (I resent ghosts not being a toggle, is there any way to turn them off yet?).  I had a silly project in df_28_181_40d16 which, using only vanilla tools (macros and marked locations) could probably have run forever with very little tweaking.  I keep meaning to go back and try again.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=48079.0;nowap

I used a constantly running set of macros to:
Occasionally toggle farming/food preparation labors on a dwarf near the main meeting area (because eventually all original dwarves would die, and their children would have no labors)
Pause/unpause, which essentially hits "OK" on game-stopping alerts.
Add brew and cook jobs to the job manager system.  Also plant processing for some reason...  I probably had them making syrup.

(Can I just say that it's utterly ridiculous that there's no way to have chefs and brewers just keep doing their jobs?  Arguably it should be auto-on like weaving, but instead there's a constant micromanagement required just to keep the dwarves brewing their drinks.  The closest thing to a solution is using a macro to add thousands of brewing jobs - since the job manager has an arbitrary cap of 30 executions.  Really the job manager system should support infinite repeating, perhaps requiring the administrator to re-verify the task occasionally.)

Other than that, it was really just a map designed for the experiment...  Large communal bedroom, some fields, I think a typical legendary dining room, plenty of storage.  If we can believe past-me, there were 400 dwarf skulls and a max population of at least 250.  They eventually tantrum-spiraled and I think crumbled, but reducing the population cap would probably have prevented that.

Yeah, I really want to mess with that again.  Doesn't work if ghosts exist, though, so I guess it has to be an old version.
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wierd

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2014, 01:01:44 pm »

The "last seeds" death is unlikely.

One can collect fresh ones from wild, randomly appearing cavern flora by doing a plant gathering designation over wild caverns in the cavern layer. (or, if the caverns are breached, over the "tamed" spore tree growing chambers.)

One can get all of the basic subterranean seeds this way.

:D
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Baffler

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2014, 01:05:00 pm »

Do ghosts come back if you deconstruct their slab?

I wonder about this too. I'll run a quick test and see what happens if nobody knows.

Wiki had an answer. Apparently the ghost comes back again as a murderous ghost, regardless of what type of ghost it was before.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 01:08:56 pm by Baffler »
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
Location subject to periodic change.
Baffler likes silver, walnut trees, the color green, tanzanite, and dogs for their loyalty. When possible he prefers to consume beef, iced tea, and cornbread. He absolutely detests ticks.

celem

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2014, 01:58:51 pm »

Yeah they hate that, they pop real fast too.  Same as if you 'disturb their rest' by touching their coffin once they are setup in it.  So you have to slab anyone whose remains you need to move before deconstructing the coffin.  Not sure what happens if you deconstruct a slab belonging to an individual who is interred in a coffin.

Time capsule works fine yes, you can do automated ones that run all night and so on and so forth.  Vamps are good, were-beasts horrible.  If everyone becomes a werebeast your fort will crumble at next full-moon.

I dont normally make them all vamps, just a couple seperated off to stop the fort from ever dying even if the living dwarves all snuff it while im asleep.
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Uronym

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2014, 02:45:01 pm »

The "necropolis" end scenario (no more space for coffins/slabs) is probably one of the least likely catastrophes for this kind of fort.

Suppose you have the fort running with a stable population of 50 dwarves. The wiki says that dwarves will die of old age between 150 and 170 years, so suppose the average lifespan 160 years. That means every 160 years, 50 dwarves will die, for a rate of 0.3125 deaths per year. If you left this running for 1000 years, you would need roughly 312.5 coffins. This wouldn't even fill an 18x18 room full of coffins, much less all the usable space.

An embark square is 48x48 tiles. Assuming that you could fully utilize a single level on a 4x4 embark (you can't, but what you can use isn't that much less), you would have room for 36864 coffins. You could, of course, have multiple levels in your necropolis, but 36864 coffins would last you roughly 117964.8 in-game years, using the scenario above. More likely than not, by then, something else has ended your fortress.

Assuming you run the fortress at 100 FPS, a year will last 4032 seconds, or 67 minutes and 12 seconds. Playing for 117964.8 years, then, would take you 475634073.6 seconds, or roughly 15 years of real time.

In other words, before you could fill an entire layer of the earth with coffins or slabs, more likely than not, your computer died, there was a power outage, Windows force-restarted you for an update (good reason to run on Linux!), Dwarf Fortress crashed (it is inevitable), or something else went wrong with your time-capsule fort, like any of the other issues discussed in this thread.
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Linkxsc

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2014, 03:27:14 pm »

^ true story. In 34 i had an embark where I was at war with everyone but the dwarves. Steel and candy armor for everyone helped, but after about 120 years of nearly constant siege (after first caravan, and first 4 groups of migrants, i never got them to survive to my fort again, so all dorfs i had were offspring of the first 40 from the migrant waves) i had something like 300 dead soldiers, taking up the corner of 1 room in an odd corner of the fort.

Also, assuming the time capsule idea, perhaps 10 floors of 48x48. Housing, workshops, and dining room could easily fill 1-2 floors.
1 floor, split up a bit could easily do all the farming for the fort. Pastures for animals could easily be in empty spaces everywhere. Then the remaining floors (assuming they are watered) could be for treegrowing.


Hell I am almost inspired to do this now.

Gonna start a fort, set up fastdwarf (to clear everything out quick).

Blast out all the floors between the surface, and the caverns. On a 1x1 embark. (Could be anywhere between 10 and 15 floors). Get the first 2 groups of migrants for pupulation. And have at it. See what happens.
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faceshed

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2014, 06:28:29 pm »

Thanks for all the posts! It's been a really fun read!

Miuramir, your story was really cool. Would they be cut off from the edge of the map? Can you harvest any equipment or anything from forgotten beasts or are they always just meat? If you could melt the metal ones it would make things a bit easier on them... If you call catching giant metal monsters from hell easy.

wierd, I didn't consider the possibility of running out of seeds. I guess you are right that you can just harvest, but it does mean that you can't use crops that don't grow on your biome. Even if the chance is almost impossible, if it's over an infinite amount of time, the crops you can't collect would all die out sooner or later. Same with beehives.

Uronym, Did you really make a death per year calculation? :D That's hilarious!

Reading all this really makes me want to try it, but I should probably try to get a fort past year 2 before I do any crazy large project like this.
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Linkxsc

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2014, 06:59:28 pm »

Well, aslong as there are a steady supply of growers/processors... ive never actually run out of seeds, other than when doing surface plots, and that was hitting the 3000 limit when traders arrived. There is the fact that each seed prpduces more than 1 plant though (with experienced farmers) so a single plump helmet spawn can equal several.


Heres my thought though.

Im gonna start an embark, bring 20 or so of each seed, couple axes couple picks, and some assorted birds. Gonna clearcut the forest on the surface whole waiting for the first 2 waves. Dig down to the first cavern (so towercaps grow) seal it back off. Then cut out 10 48x48 floors, with which to begin constructing the "capsule". Ill post about it in here after i get it going.
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faceshed

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2014, 07:10:23 pm »

Well, aslong as there are a steady supply of growers/processors... ive never actually run out of seeds, other than when doing surface plots, and that was hitting the 3000 limit when traders arrived. There is the fact that each seed prpduces more than 1 plant though (with experienced farmers) so a single plump helmet spawn can equal several.


Heres my thought though.

Im gonna start an embark, bring 20 or so of each seed, couple axes couple picks, and some assorted birds. Gonna clearcut the forest on the surface whole waiting for the first 2 waves. Dig down to the first cavern (so towercaps grow) seal it back off. Then cut out 10 48x48 floors, with which to begin constructing the "capsule". Ill post about it in here after i get it going.

If you do it for real it won't be a problem. It could never really be a problem in the real world, but over infinite time, if something has a chance to happen, it will.

Anyway good luck. It will be really fun to hear about how it works out. Don't forget the armadillos.
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Linkxsc

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2014, 07:34:27 pm »

Cant do armadillos, gonna bring some pigs dogs and birds and hope for the best. The embark i got has sand and clay,penned the first layer cavern and sealed it off so ill have trees in the future. And though the first wave of migrants hasnt come,ive started peerling out the first layer for farming.

First 3 floors will be the farming/ production level. The whole thing os surrounded by a corridor 48x48. Centerally is a 4x4 up/down stair. Which actually extends down to the cavern layer, but it wont be getting much use. Then theres a 2 wide hall extending out to the edges from the central stair. So far the farming floors are being split into 36 rooms for each of the 3 floors (6x6 rooms). With special notice to 2 rooms which are water storage (drained 1 small lake).

My plan, is to as the first 2 waves come, ill keep carving out the fort and build a small building with a drawbridge to seal off the surface.

Stupid extensions to my plan, are to leave a pick and an axe on the surface. And starting with wave 3, they'll start building a surface only fort over the hole. For the lulz ofcourse.
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Miuramir

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Re: Infinite time capsle fort?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2014, 01:28:19 am »

The "necropolis" end scenario (no more space for coffins/slabs) is probably one of the least likely catastrophes for this kind of fort.

Slightly disjointed responses: woken up by weather, killing time until things calm down. 

Probably.  But it's the one that, even after you have found a fix for the other problems, gets you in the end, barring vampirism.  That's the thing about even "ordinary" deep time, let alone infinity.  I hadn't allowed for that, which is why this discussion was particularly interesting; in DF *free space* itself is a limited resource which is gradually consumed. 

I was thinking that the original planners had allowed for "long term" planning, at least three to four full dwarven generations, but may not have had the skills to extrapolate further.  Additionally, original systems for handling things like obsidian farming were probably not designed well enough for long term abuse (tantrums, poltergeists, building destroyer FBs, trees in precisely the wrong place at the wrong time), and in the extrapolative stories I was assuming that significant fractions of the embark were no longer safe (or in some cases even possible) to access due to deadly FBs and fluid system failures.  Plus, eventually something goes wrong and you loose (or loose access to) the last pick and/or the last anvil.  "Unkillable FB comes up through the magma furnaces" is a fast way to turn a nice fort into a bunch of huddled refugees scraping by in a hurry, although I think the founders in this case would have taken at least some precautions against that.  (Fireproof, building destroyer, web-throwing FB followed by a swarm of magma crabs that have gradually accumulated to the map max of 50 is more !!Fun!! than many forts could take even when not sealed in and material limited.) 

Humans have a typical lifetime rather less than dwarves, and we're designing mechanisms with 10,000 year lifetimes (the Clock of the Long Now being the most famous). 

Admittedly, I didn't do the math, and "tens of thousands" would have been a better choice.  That said, I would assume at least the stock 200 soft / 220 hard cap, and was thinking in terms of raising it, to see where the population stabilized "on its own", or possibly oscillated in cycles, if an actual dwarven city could spring up; that cuts the time by a factor of four or more. 

FWIW, issues connected to the host computer are "outside" the simulation; if the computer crashes or is rebooted, then resumed from the last seasonal save, from the point of view of the dwarves "inside" they can't tell it has happened; the fort's history is continuous and unbroken.  Besides, one of the Linux systems at work has redundant hot-swappable power supplies, fans, and hard drives; multiple CPUs, and redundant ECC memory; it's an even more reliable upgrade for a data-logging server that has had uptimes of around a year.  Run DF on a VM with failover redundancy on a small cluster that you replace the servers in gradual rotation, and it's entirely possible to run for a decade or more with only the briefest of outside blips, and none visible inside :)

Answering some other questions... in my original concept, the edges of the map were "mostly" sealed; aquifers and SMR are effectively representing flow from off-map, though; and where FBs arrived from is a bit vague.  I'd assumed hell had not / would not be breached, because that's a different sub-game.  AFAIK, inorganic FBs don't drop anything workable; FBs can source meat and if lucky shells, leather, web, etc. but not metal, stone, or gems.  IIRC there's a limit of 50 of any one kind of seed; a combination of hauling, planting, and harvesting failures could conceivably waste or rot that many, and unless it's something you can cavern-gather and that repopulates indefinitely (not sure of the mechanics), there's no recovery of that crop ever again.  (A more reasonably paranoid fort would have isolated "seed vaults" to minimize the risk of this sort of thing.) 
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