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[TCM]

Modifiers?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Modifiers?

Yes

I will be using D 20 probably and size, strength, and moral modifiers added
With a max Of 30 and a min of 0

[Taricus]

((I would also add in training, tactics and terrain modifiers as well.))

"Given the severity of those demands, along with the aggressiveness to which Demestris has pursued such an annexation that, from what we know about, is wholly unfair to the populace of Sigylguard, therefore we have no option but to condemn this attack and propose a full embargo on Demestris as a result."

[Andres]

Demestris is saddened by the actions taken by the Duchy of Aerindinus, however it must be known that this war is not unfair towards the populace of Sigylguard. They had it coming, after all.

[GAME NEWS]
Will be trying some different types of war mechanics tomorrow
Anybody got suggestions on how they want it
I'm probably just going to do attack vet defence rolls till either the armies surrender/retreat or get completely killed

If the other player has a copy of Rome 2, then it's possible that we can just settle it in a multiplayer battle.
A more feasible option however, is to do the battle in a modified Crusader Kings 2-style. I'll post it here in a bit.

[Andres]

-SNIP-

[Stirk]

If the other player has a copy of Rome 2, then it's possible that we can just settle it in a multiplayer battle.
A more feasible option however, is to do the battle in a modified Crusader Kings 2-style. I'll post it here in a bit.

We should probably just do what he has planned. I don't have either of those (video?) games and never played them. This would probably give you a massive advantage over everyone else, seeing as you suggested it. What is wrong with the good old D20?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Ok from this moment forth if any secret messages of game stuffs are passed along personal message without my knowing and I find out I will lock this thread


If you want to send a secret message to another city state just include me in the pm for if nothing else my ease of knowing what the heck is going on


That being said a note was passed in the great hall between two delegates
((Taricus to Andres))

[TCM]

I have thought up a few modifiers for general variables based around the game's concepts and D20 systems, that are of course suggestions and fit to alteration and be discussed.

Terrain [Offensive Penalties]:

Plains: Easily accessible and transversable, optimal fighting ground for invasion force. +1
Woods: Some trees and vegetation. -0
Hills: Uneven gradients, difficult to move through. -2
Forest: Thick trees, rough ground, massive vegetation, canopy blocks sunlight. -3
Ice Flats: Very cold, harsh weather, exposed and barren. -3
Mountains: Extreme steepness, difficult terrain, lack of resources. -4, -5 for "Heavier" Troops
Desert: Extremely hot, arid, few resources. -6, -8 for "Heavier" Troops

Training [General Combat Modifiers]:

None: Drafted peasants. -3
Basic Training: General "How to stab things and not get killed immediately" teaching. Local militia level. +0
Standard Training: Adequate training that a regular, nondescript army would have. +2
Efficient Training: Soldiers that know how to fight and adapt in a variety of situations. The highest level one could hope for in a standard army. +4
Specialized Training: A handful of elite soldiers that can crush enemies whom outnumber them. On-par with warriors such as the Spartans and Elite Knights. +6
War Machine: An extraordinarily small amount of warriors that constitute maybe 100 per 100,000 normal soldiers, if even that much. They've been bred by birth for fighting, whether through slavery or inherited status. There's not enough of them to create a full force, so they have to be specialized for tasks such as guarding the leader(s) of state or a taskforce to complete duties no other soldier could. +8

Training also effects overall Discipline. More Discipline, means that troops will be less likely to Retreat, which could be based on percentages. For example, troops with No Training would run away after losing a mere 10-15% of their total force, for standard soldiers it could be 40%-60%, and War Machines will fight down to the last soldier.

Political/Ideological/Culture/etc. [Offensive Bonuses]:

Pacifism/Peaceful: Rejection of all fighting. Why would they do this in the first place? -4, if an offense can be sustained at all.
Isolationist: The desire to tend to their own problems rather than that of others. -4 if offense can not be proven to the populace to be in response to a direct attack or threat to the nation.
No Standard War Ideology: War is present, but the people of the nation don't have a standard outlook on it as a whole. +0 in general, varies on war.
Interventionist: The people feel that they need to fight in external wars for the good of their country. +2
Patriotism/Jingoist: War is a means to protect the homeland and promote the prosperity of the country. +4
Warrior Tradition: War is not just an abstract concept, it's an important part of everyday life, often embedded culturally and/or religiously. +5

Size also has to be accounted for, as an army is going to have a much easier time fighting another army if it's opposition is 1/2 or 1/3 it's size. Then again, larger forces would be more susceptible to Terrain, Supply and Morale penalties than smaller, more tightly-knit outfits.

Material is also important for combat in determining the effectiveness of a force's equipment. I imagine it works something like:
Nothing < Wood < Stone < Metal
The Quality of Equipment is also important, as finely, professionally crafted Wood weapons could very well manage to penetrate bad, amateurishly produced Stone armor.

A central part of combat is going to be the dynamics of the different types of forces, which currently look like Infantry, Ranged/Archery and Artillery.

[Andres]

((Please postpone combat for a little while longer. My combat rules thing is nearly done and I have some other things to do as well.))

[TCM]

((Please postpone combat for a little while longer. My combat rules thing is nearly done and I have some other things to do as well.))

It's just a suggestion for Cryxis, he's allowed to use whatever he wants, including any system he's already set up himself of course.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Ya definitely using modifiers and will probably post small MOCK combat tomorrow

All combat is only practice and does not actually affect the game
If it turns out to be a good system real combat can happen latter
Think of this as a kind of war-games type thing

[Andres]

Yeah, we know this is mock stuff. If this wasn't then there's no way in hell that Demestris would never invade one of their neighbours for no reason just because they had it coming.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

So I'm thinking of implementing rules of war as well and those who don't follow some basic things are liable for provoked attacks from anyone

Also most combat is either going to be
1- formations of units fighting each other in designated war zones
2- an invading army pushing through a nation and it's cities
3-an army outside the walls of a city trying to get in
4-several armies fighting in a war zone for supremacy


By the way if you want to war for resources a nice treaty can be made so that the losing side has to give the winner resources or some of their land or something instead of total invasion

[Andres]

EDIT: Anybody know how to make nested Spoilers that actually work?

I'll post those army stats of your soon. For now, have a battle system suggestion:

Pre-Battle Phase

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Both armies are set up on opposite sides of the field. Each segment of each army is divided into 'blocks'. Blocks are determined by the players. As an example, the Grand Army of Demestris is composed of four blocks, each led by either the Great King or a General, with each block being comprised of 3,000 men. The entire Sigylguard army is composed of about 5,000 men so let's have them in two blocks of 2,500 each. In front of these two blocks will be the blocks representing the Second and Third Demestris armies, to the left of the Second and Third is the First army, to the right is the Fourth army, and to the right of the Fourth army is the Fifth army. These other three armies are not in front of any other blocks so they can flank the two Sigylguard armies; we'll get to that later though.

First/Artillery/Initial/Whatever-You-Want-To-Call-It Phase

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Since Sigylguard has artillery, they are allowed to fire a volley with it before Demestris can do anything. If Demestris had artillery, you could roll to see who gets to fire first. To calculate damage you can use these two sources. For simplicity, artillery is not allowed to move and gets no bonuses when flanking.

Skirmish Phase 1

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now it gets a bit complicated. If one of the armies decided to advance, then they will have advanced into the Skirmish Phase. Artillery are allowed to target Skirmish Phase blocks. In this phase, units like slingers, archers, and crossbowmen fire on the opposing block. Flanking units get a bonus to damage (with modifiers such as if the enemy army has the shield in the left hand or something, maybe) and a small penalty to hit if more than 1 block away (being directly diagonal counts as 1 block so no penalty). Long-range skirmish units, unlike artillery, can fire multiple volleys in each phase. Archers and slingers get three and crossbowmen get two.

Skirmish Phase 2

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Once Demestris advances again, the rules change a bit. In this phase, short-range skrimishers like javelinmen, grenade throwers, and head throwers can fire on the opposing block. Flanking units of short-ranged skirmish units can ONLY flank units one block away with a small penalty. Long-range skirmishers can flank just like before but lose the penalty from firing from 2 blocks away. A 3 block flank is still impossible. At this range, artillery can target Skirmish Phase 2 troops but there is a very tiny chance that it'll hit a few friendly troops. Short-range skirmishers get four volleys during this phase.

Charge Phase

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In between Skirmish Phase 2 and the Melee Phase is the Charge Phase. Charging gives a bonus to the charger. Some units are better at charging than others. Charges can be countered by bracing. Some units are better at bracing than others, and some units are better at bracing than charging. It should be noted however that bracing only takes away the bonus of the opponents charge and doesn't provide a bonus on its own. The only exception to this rule being when used against cavalry, but more on that later...

Melee Phase - Round X

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not much explanation needed here. Block sizes are compared, unit quality is matched up, flanking is taken into account. Some units are better in this phase than others - swordsmen are better than spearmen for example. Long- and short-ranged skirmish units can still target enemy troops but a fair amount of missiles will hit friendly troops (40% +/- dice-roll). This is true for flanking skirmishers as well but with less chance to hit friendly troops (30% +/- dice-roll). Artillery CAN be used against melee troops but a high amount of missiles (80%!) WILL hit your troops. This phase is broken up into rounds. Every round, damage is done and morale is affected. If a block in the Melee phase routs, the block that they were fighting gets a flanking bonus on whatever new block they target. The Melee Phase ends when all blocks of either side has routed.

Rout

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fighting to the death rarely happens in battles. The the battle starts going very badly some units may rout - that is, to run away. They will attempt to make their way as quickly as possibly directly away from the battle and will leave the battle in 4 rounds. Units that are routing can be shot down by skirmish units and artillery, with perhaps a bonus if there's less armour on their backs. They can also be chased down by more lightly armored melee units, however the damage done this way is significantly less than if they were shot. Then there's cavalry...

Cavalry

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cavalry. The wild card of any army. These guys can move 2 phases in a single turn and get a HUGE bonus to flanking and charging. They are also the best unit for killing off routing units. They do have some disadvantages however. Unless they're fighting light units like artillery or skirmishers, they're not going to do very well in melee - ESPECIALLY shock cavalry, who almost solely rely on charging. While cavalry are the best chargers out of any other units, any unit that that braces actually gains a bonus when doing so against cavalry as well as countering the charge bonus of the cavalry like a normal brace. In most cases though the bracing bonuses aren't enough to counter the charge bonuses to the point where the infantry takes less damage than the cavalry. Most cases. Spearmen get a large bonus when fighting cavalry and can brace well enough to damage cavalry more than cavalry can damage them during a charge.

Tactics

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are many tactics that can be used by players during battle but for now let's talk about three of them: flank-charging, hammer-and-anvil, and phalanx.

Flank charging is when a unit charges another unit from the flanks. Crazy right? The only difference between a flank-charge and a regular charge is that with a flank charge, there's a 5% chance that the chargee won't be able to brace in time. This chance is doubled if cavalry is doing the flanking.

Hammer-and-anvil is a much deadlier form of flank-charging. It requires the chargee to already be engaged with other units but increases the chance they won't brace in time to a massive 80% for infantry and a ludicrous 95% for cavalry! It also wreaks havoc on morale.

A phalanx is when several ranks of troops present spears towards the enemy. The longer the spear the more spears can be levied at the same time. The purpose of this formation is to have the equivalent of 3 to 5 men (depending on spear length) each from different ranks attack at the same time. This provides a MASSIVE bonus when attacking from the front and cavalry charges are impossible from that angle. It's not that they can't do it per se, but rather that they'll never reach the phalangites and will get slaughtered.
Something to know about the phalanx is that it's basically an advanced form of bracing - it actually provides a small bonus when used against charging infantry, but not as high as when any other infantry unit braces against cavalry.
The phalanx does have some major disadvantages however. Phalangites cannot charge or chase down units unless they drop their pikes. If they get charged when out of formation, they're fucked. They get charged from the flanks, their fucked. If, God forbid, they're attacked from the front by another phalanx unit while getting hammer-and-anvilled, ESPECIALLY by cav, they're OVERFUCKED.
The formation is also rather difficult or outright impossible to keep depending on the terrain.

[Taricus]

Holy... That all looks good. Except for the fact that Phalangites should be able to charge, given that was used by the swiss quite successfully.