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Author Topic: No more derails: my complaint topic.  (Read 5577 times)

cerevox

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2014, 02:55:58 pm »

This entire thing sounds to me like something we actually see IRL all the time. Old system is widespread, new system comes out and replaces old system because the new system is superior. People invested in old system complain that new system is - ruining the new generation/destroying fabric of society/corrupting morals - and so on and so forth.

MW is superior to loose mods, it allows a player to get near endless variety all in one spot instead of having to run around and kludge together all the mods they intend to use. It is perfectly understandable that people who are invested in or prefer the old system are scared, because the loose mods system is much more difficult for end users to set up, while MW can be done in seconds, so when MW is available there is simply no reason to ever pick up a loose mod.

Rather than demand that MW be less great, perhaps the focus should be on raising the general level of modding so MW has some competition?

Relevant XKCDs...
http://xkcd.com/1289/
http://xkcd.com/1227/
http://xkcd.com/1215/
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Putnam

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2014, 04:33:53 pm »

Rather than demand that MW be less great, perhaps the focus should be on raising the general level of modding so MW has some competition?

I was working on it, but PeredexisErrant got something working faster, so now I just have to wait until that's actually released.

draeath

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2014, 05:19:41 pm »

Perhaps instead of opening to the current GUI, it could open to a screen with just a small number of buttons: Masterwork Dwarf Fortress, Gnome Fortress, Orc Fortress, Kobold Camp, Warlock Tower, Succubus Fortress, Human Fortress, Hermit Cottage, and Customize.  Customize would bring up the current GUI, while the others would just set the default settings with the selected race as the only playable one, launch the game, then close the GUI.  It meas a new player is faced with a lot less options until they're prepared for it.

I would agree with this. Perhaps split the UI - the "main" UI would consist of preset selectors and utility launchers. One of said utilities would be much like the launcher we now have, in that it allows you to easily tune everything to your liking.

New players or the impatient get their instant gratification. Those of us who like to get our hands dirty, experiment, or just plain want to change things still can.
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slay_mithos

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2014, 05:53:37 pm »

The main problem about this whole thing is that people are always feeling that they need to compare things.

If/when anyone makes a mod, it should never start with an idea like "I want to be known", or "I want my mod to be better than X".
Those ideas are bound to fail, more often than not.

Why should we compare a mod that makes, for example, vanilla humans playable with the human version in MDF?
It's not even the same lore, at this point, and both mods can be fun to play around with in their own right.

The few times where I mod things in games (I mean, making mods, or altering scripts/source code), it is at first to suit my personal tastes, and occasionally it fits with the views of a few other people, so I release it.
While that might disqualify me from being considered a "proper modder", I really think that it's a safer approach to modding, because even if every single person came and said that the mod I made is bad and not worth the time to even read the thread, it's something I would still enjoy.

Ok, I'm just a weird person, because I'm not constantly feeling the need to have other people compliment me, or even validate my opinions.
Even in the real life, I care very little about how random people view me.

But still, if modders were to remove that wish to be recognized for their work, and put their efforts more into doing things for themselves first, they would not be hurt as much from only having a few people come and give feedback.
Sure, if the mod is well received and grows, you can start doing things for your players (balancing, taking requests...), but that is only if/when you get feedback that validates that what you did mostly fits a lot of players' needs.
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imlovinit

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2014, 06:42:32 pm »

Maybe we could make a blog or something where someone talks about smaller mods in a review style so that way people could hear about some of the good smaller singular mods that dont get much recognition?
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I mean you can today reasonably expect a dwarf not to put themselves on the wrong side of a flood-gate, or run through fire. That's progress.

UristMcDuck

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2014, 12:21:44 am »

New players or the impatient get their instant gratification. Those of us who like to get our hands dirty, experiment, or just plain want to change things still can.

Dude, this isn't Halo.  Impatient players won't get past the basics in vanilla.  I suspect anyone who makes it to Masterwork can handle it.

And, Meph, everything is practically Goddamn perfect.  Don't let sour grapes distract you.  Actually, while it's interesting to hear your response to this "issue," it's a huge waste of your time and if I could dictate your schedule, I'd have you ignoring the Negative Nancies and, instead, working on the mod that (virtually) everyone loves you for.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2014, 12:59:18 am »

Browsing the boards, there are a lot of people with very simple mods that add one or two things to the game.  A single new race, a handful of new creatures or plants, and so on.  The chances of somebody browsing around and picking out any one of these mini-mods over the others, taking the time to download it, and dealing with any possible crashes that might occur by mixing two mods that were never meant to be mixed, is pretty slim.  For total conversions that create whole new worlds and new settings (post-apocalyptic, alien planets, or franchise-based mods such as my own Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom) that's one thing, but for smaller projects that only add a little extra onto DF's generic fantasy base... why not incorporate them into a single 'verse built by the combined content of the entire community, moderated by a single person to ensure that it remains thematically cohesive?

The reason why I made content for Masterwork is because... well, I like the idea of Masterwork.  I actually came up with the decision to make a race for the mod before I decided what that race should be (for those who weren't there at the beginning, the gnomes were almost going to be Gremlins, and I didn't even consider the use of DFhack until working on it for a little while).

I'll admit that I was disappointed at the gnome's overall lack of popularity, but... screw it, they were intended to appeal mainly to the megaproject-and-complexity-loving crowd, which is few and far between.  At least I get to anticipate their appearance in The Littlest Cheesemaker :).

Vherid

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2014, 03:49:26 am »

Jesus Christ, Putnam.

Insanegame27

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2014, 04:56:01 am »

Putnam? How much of your free time do you designate towards TRYING to make your mods known? 0? 5 mins total maybe? I would really like to know.

I don't encourage this or anything but to quote
Quote from: Arnold Schwarzenegger
You can't climb the ladder of success with your hands in your pocket

and to meph
Quote from: Arnold Schwarzenegger
Ignore the naysayers
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The military cannot function without ICBMs, therefore the right of the people to keep and bear ICBMs, shall not be infringed.

WriterX

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2014, 05:09:21 am »

I shall speak from the point of view of a player who enjoys playing Dwarf Fortress, and its different Mods (and Mods for different games, in general).

I suppose one of the major problems with Mods for Dwarf Fortress, especially mini-mods, is that there is no way of quickly managing them, browsing through them, etc. When I started playing Dwarf Fortress all I did was add a graphics pack, then when I learned to change playable races and edit the Raws I begin playing the different races in the game, with a bit of editing of course. It was nothing advanced, merely calling for a bit of editing and questions on the forums.

The first "mod pack" I discovered was the Newbie Pack (I believe it was called) that had all the different utilities and mods installed, and it all worked perfectly. I am relatively new to Masterwork DF and I really liked it for a few things:

1) Simplicity, the GUI really helps in managing your pre-game where otherwise you would have to dig into the Raws and find the correct parameters. It has a long selection of graphical mods and even fonts. It has custom races, which was the one thing that caught my attention primarily, but most importantly I can quickly and easilly switch between them.

2) Everything in one package. Like in the case of the Newb Pack everything you could possibly need is there. You even have handy options to turn off the things you do not want or need. If you are not skilled in "operating" DF then you could have a massive headache adding the different races individually, making sure they work properly, etc. Masterwork does that for you.

3) It's great for beginners. When I speak with my friends and other games and they hear my stories about DF and want to try it on their own I direct them to mod packs such as Masterwork or Newb Pack, because they offer a LOT of help to somebody who is just starting out. When I begun playing Dwarf Fortress Vanilla I had no idea what I was doing, and it took a LOT of time to break through the learning curve to understand what I was doing. While the races in Masterwork are different to the Vanilla Dwarves they are, in some ways, much easier to play.

All of that said, an issue with Dwarf Fortress Mods, in general, is that unless a person has heard of a specific mod, or knows where to look for them, he won't be able to quickly select the content he is after. I am sure there are countless different Mods that people should try, but how can somebody learn of them if they are not clearly listed somewhere.

The simplest solution is something akin to MODDB, where all the different mods could be listed, and sorted into different categories (graphical, race, utility, etc.). That was a person could quickly search through them and find the ones he wants. However, the problem of installation may persist, even if it's something as simple as copy-pasting a file. If Dwarf Fortress had a way of quickly managing Mods, similar to what X3 had eventually, then people would be able to do just that.

Yet, DF is still a game in development, and Masterwork, and I imagine many other mods, may be "outdated", until the newest version becomes stable and the mods can be adapted to it. As such creating a central platform might not yet be possible, to offer equal "Modding" rights, since who knows when DF will be in a "perfect" state?
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draeath

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2014, 09:25:22 am »

I'll admit that I was disappointed at the gnome's overall lack of popularity, but... screw it, they were intended to appeal mainly to the megaproject-and-complexity-loving crowd, which is few and far between.  At least I get to anticipate their appearance in The Littlest Cheesemaker :).

Not because of a lack of quality, over here. I'm half overwhelmed by vanilla, I'm afraid to try your race - wouldn't even know where to start.

Whether I play them or not though, I appreciate the labor that went into them!
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Meph

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2014, 09:36:28 am »

Yeah, people that build computers inside DF would love them. :D
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Insanegame27

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2014, 11:36:53 am »

Yeah, people that build computers inside DF would love them. :D
But its not limited to that though
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Quote from: Second Amendment
A militia cannot function properly without arms, therefore the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The military cannot function without tanks and warplanes, therefore the right of the people to keep and bear tanks and warplanes, shall not be infringed.
The military cannot function without ICBMs, therefore the right of the people to keep and bear ICBMs, shall not be infringed.

Cruxador

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2014, 11:59:50 am »

MW is superior to loose mods
That sure is a hot opinion you've got there. Lots of folks prefer to avoid masterwork because they don't want a broad variety of kludgey hacks, but prefer something sticking fairly close to Toady's vision, with some minor modifications to taste. Sure, if you want a huge overhaul then Masterwork is far and away the best option. But that's not what everyone wants, and it's far from objectively superior.

Rather than demand that MW be less great, perhaps the focus should be on raising the general level of modding so MW has some competition?

I was working on it, but PeredexisErrant got something working faster, so now I just have to wait until that's actually released.
In other words, sticking to your usual workflow?
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cerevox

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Re: No more derails: my complaint topic.
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2014, 02:54:39 pm »

Not objectively superior in all ways, no. I thought I qualified that statement, but if it needs repeating...

MW is superior to loose mods when you either want more than 1 mod a time, which is often the case, and/or you don't want to have to manually set up the mod, which is also often the case. From the PoV of ease-of-use, which is often the deciding factor when someone is making a choice on modding, MW is just easier. Obviously I have no data to back that, it is just my impression. Of course, it doesn't hurt that MW is also high quality. Why spend an time setting up a single new race when you can down MW and get a whole heap of high quality races in seconds?
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