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[Orange Wizard]

Posting to complain about walls of text.

...

I guess if Masterwork were less an amalgamation of mods and more of a mod loader/manager, we'd avoid the MW/non-MW split. No idea if that's a thing that Meph wants.

[Meph]

Putnam: Well, I was focussing on that specific part because you made it sound like its something affecting the entiry community, while it actually appears to be something more about yourself. I understand how frustrating it can be to do something and get no recognition for it (if its the main reason you are doing it), but it's unfair to camouflage this thread as a "the community has a problem with MDF", while it's "I have a problem with MDF"

I agree, Masterwork is huge. Lets say 50% of all recent DF modding is in it. And that more than 50% of all mod players use Masterwork. (I didnt check this at all, its just a gross simplification). Thats because there is also a lot more time and effort in it and its designed to appeal to a large group of people.

We had this discussion earlier, about a project that creates an equal amount of feedback and possible donations to warrant full time work, and I tell you now what I told you before: I only see two options. Either you join the dark side (write a race for Masterwork, I know that works because I have proven twice that people are willing to donate for this), or work on a Mod Starter Pack. PeridexisErrants Starter Pack is pretty much the only thing that is more (and vastly so) popular than Masterwork, and a completely modular Mod Starter Pack, which reverts back to vanilla with all setting off, would probably fall between the two. Smaller than the Starter Pack, larger than Masterwork. But I see Peridexis, Dirst, Button and Fricy working on it, not so much you.

Or you talk to Toady and ask if its ok to do a non-mod DF project that creates revenue enough to warrant full time work, like a book about DF that is sold on Amazon. 

Another solution would be to take Smakes point of view. He also put many hours into DF. Regardless of feedback and amount of players, he did it because it was fun to mod and to make something nice for his wive. He certainly doesnt care for upvotes on Reddit.

InsanityIncarnate: I suggested this several times to other people, and PeridexisErrant is kinda working on it. I myself would have to scrap Masterwork and start from scratch to do something similar, its too much work.

[Szarrukin]

The reason I do this is... personal. I used to work on modding almost as you much as Meph does now. I used to juggle all 5 of my mods about equally, updating them, etc. I didn't get an audience because I was making mods that didn't have any sort of broad appeal, but then I made one that did and... it got no appeal. I go to Reddit and find that everything is attributed to Masterwork. Just a couple days ago, someone posted a new metal their, Mithril. I was happy. Someone replied with (paraphrased) "isn't this in Masterwork? and can you make wolfram and cobalt?". I grabbed wolfram and cobalt for him from the files I'd already made based on those metals, but then said that mentioning that the most famous fantasy metal of all time is in the biggest fantasy hodgepodge mod around is entirely pointless. I got downvoted because I complained about Masterwork being brought up for no reason. So now I'm going on tirades and posting rants because nobody else is and it's scary, very very scary what Masterwork is doing.

...long story short, "waaaah, nobody cares for my mod, staph doing masterwork, muh mod iz betterz!"

[Putnam]

...long story short, "waaaah, nobody cares for my mod, staph doing masterwork, muh mod iz betterz!"

I suspect that you would like to discourage Meph into quitting modding.

wow no

[Meph]

The reason I do this is... personal. I used to work on modding almost as you much as Meph does now. I used to juggle all 5 of my mods about equally, updating them, etc. I didn't get an audience because I was making mods that didn't have any sort of broad appeal, but then I made one that did and... it got no appeal. I go to Reddit and find that everything is attributed to Masterwork. Just a couple days ago, someone posted a new metal their, Mithril. I was happy. Someone replied with (paraphrased) "isn't this in Masterwork? and can you make wolfram and cobalt?". I grabbed wolfram and cobalt for him from the files I'd already made based on those metals, but then said that mentioning that the most famous fantasy metal of all time is in the biggest fantasy hodgepodge mod around is entirely pointless. I got downvoted because I complained about Masterwork being brought up for no reason. So now I'm going on tirades and posting rants because nobody else is and it's scary, very very scary what Masterwork is doing.

...long story short, "waaaah, nobody cares for my mod, staph doing masterwork, muh mod iz betterz!"

Did I stutter?

I really shouldnt be forced to mention it, but seeing the post just above mine: Please. Everyone stay civil. I tried to back up everything I said with data and math, and I wouldnt like to see anyone just throwing around false accusations that heat up the attitude in this thread even more. Being demotivated by lack of feedback is not the same as being jealous/feeling envy of other peoples perceived success.

[Orange Wizard]

InsanityIncarnate: I suggested this several times to other people, and PeridexisErrant is kinda working on it. I myself would have to scrap Masterwork and start from scratch to do something similar, its too much work.

I guess there's no easy solution.

I can definitely see where Putnam is coming from. Masterwork is known for being... well, masterwork. And if your mod isn't in Masterwork you might as well not even try. The fact that we can easily draw the line between MW and non-MW mods alone is telling.

[Putnam]

InsanityIncarnate: I suggested this several times to other people, and PeridexisErrant is kinda working on it. I myself would have to scrap Masterwork and start from scratch to do something similar, its too much work.

I guess there's no easy solution.

And if your mod isn't in Masterwork you might as well not even try.

I wouldn't go that far unless I'm feeling particularly self-hating, but there is some gap, yes.

[Boltgun]

I usually shun video game politics but I made the succubus race for both vanilla and masterwork so I can weight in with experience.

First, the saying that if your mod should be in masterwork to be popular is false. The succubus civ did fine in the vanilla version and I don't think I have so much more players in MDF now.

However there is a lot more interactions between the mod and community in MDF. When a player posts a community fort or a story, your race can be there as an antagonist. You also interact to other modders and affect each other, it is exciting to see that the orcs can raid succubi settlements and that gnomes have taunt for them.

My point is that someone creating a race in MDF is attracted by different things than someone creating a race for vanilla. Gnomes, orcs and nagas would not have existed as standalone mods to start with so the community lost nothing. In fact the worst MDF can do is to attract more modders, who may not write for vanilla, but still exist in the modding community.

That said, after the warlocks masterwork went away from being a mod pack to its own thing now. Meph did redesign the world around the races addition, providing the 4 factions system and making it more coherent. It feels a lot more like a total conversion than a mod pack now, and it is really far from the DF canon. This is why I believe it should not include other mods anymore (except for technical resources, it's a different). That is no longer its goal.

[Rydel]

From what I'm reading here, it seems like the most common issue is that the GUI has a ton of options, which intimidates people that are new to Masterwork.

Perhaps instead of opening to the current GUI, it could open to a screen with just a small number of buttons: Masterwork Dwarf Fortress, Gnome Fortress, Orc Fortress, Kobold Camp, Warlock Tower, Succubus Fortress, Human Fortress, Hermit Cottage, and Customize.  Customize would bring up the current GUI, while the others would just set the default settings with the selected race as the only playable one, launch the game, then close the GUI.  It meas a new player is faced with a lot less options until they're prepared for it.

[Findulidas]

Not saying anything about vanilla DF as it relates to Masterwork here, just how mods built on vanilla are related to mods built on Masterwork, so the maker of the actual game doesn't have much to do with this.

I know you arent here, but I remember thats how you felt in the last thread. I thought you still did tbh. Still think you are wrong about a massive good mod that many people taking part of somehow kills off all other mods.

[Fairin]

Reading all of this Bull is making me nerd rage. (especally the denial of shadowrun from meph himself...)

the train of thought : "mods gotta be in masterwork to be noticed" is rather poisonous. as we have seen it has basically killed Putnam.

instead if you write a mod it should be because you want too. not because you desire everyone to play it and experience it. you will only set yourself up for failure at a hollywood level. and they only succeed at it because they controll everything about it.

also the splitting up of masterwork into smaller mods feels more like the political idiotic argument of wealth spreading. "hey your doing too awesome, nice money(mod) you made! we'll take it! wont you feel patriotic?"

TL:DR > just quietly qq, or mod because you have passion to mod, not because you want it to be successful and popular.

[Meph]

I do both. Projects that are fun for me to do, and projects that are fun for a couple of thousand people. I still have to set priorities about how I use my time, and if I'd do a Shadowrun mod, I'd do it right. That takes time, and if 100 people like it, thats good. If I invest the same amount of time into Masterwork, and 5000 people like the addition, thats better.

[richieelias]

...
There is a not-insignificant (relative to the total population) amount of DF players that, like me, refuse to play Masterwork primarily on ideological grounds.

I have an issue with this, specifically. You come here to complain about something that you have refused to try yourself based on whatever (reasons are irrelevant). I would have the exact same issue with someone who decided, say, "I hate onions" without ever having tried one. Or "I hate Mormons" without reading anything as to what they are about. You've formed (and shared) an opinion based on almost total ignorance.

Of course, if what you just said is not accurate, and you have in fact downloaded the mod and seen what it contains, then you are most welcome to your opinion. Might want to rephrase that statement though.

Unlike me, they tend not to do anything about it, I guess because they're not quite as invested in the modding community. Due to this, those people will never see Masterwork's races due to a flat refusal to try Masterwork despite it being... not one mod. This divides mods into two camps, Masterwork and non-Masterwork; such a division is not good for the community.

Due to this fact, the races would work better as a standalone package, not part of Masterwork. There's no reason to include them in Masterwork except that some of them happen to use stuff that Masterwork already uses; perhaps there's some odd sense of inclusionism or something I'm missing entirely, but I really don't see why other entire mods with entirely new themes need to be included in Masterwork.

I've decided to stop work on Fantastic and mod collections for this exact reason; there are whole mods hidden in both those and Masterwork that people will never get to see simply because they're mods hidden within another mod. This just makes the whole thing more confusing for people. Thus, quite counter-intuitively, the GUI is one of the least user-friendly things around for people who want to try mods.

Unfortunately, I have no call to action for this. I'm not in control of the GUI, nor the races. Even if I were in control of the GUI, I would find it very difficult to say to all of the people who had designed races for Masterwork to just pack it all up and move it to vanilla. I do think, however, that the modding community in general would benefit from not having what is, at this point, essentially two separate mod releases subforums, one of which just happens to have a name associated with it.

You keep saying you don't understand why these mods "need" to be included. Erase that word from your head please. The modders themselves decide when and where they want their content to be released. Nobody is holding a gun to their head, and the imaginary internet dollar currently is not trade-able on the world market. You have no call to action, and none is even necessary. Even if Masterwork were the Gelatinous Cube absorbing all mods that you seem to be making it out to be, it is not your call to make. You are not god of the modding community.

Also, you don't play Masterwork. How can you make the call as to whether they should be included together or not?

Note that this is my complaint about the GUI specifically; I have other grievances about the community as a whole, but you can see those just about everywhere, so I decided to start this topic up with a new one.

It seems to me by what you are writing that your complaint is not with the GUI at all. You seem to be complaining that other mods are being included with Masterwork (I wont say absorbed because it is a collaborative effort, not a take-over). To that note, if multiple modders wish to collaborate in one mega-mod, why not let them? How is this ever a bad idea? You see this sort of thing in so many games (Every Total War game has a couple mods like this where multiple mods combine for instance) and it doesnt lead to the "death of the community" there. Why is the Dwarf Fortress community so special and fragile?

[pisskop]

My 2nickels (because pennies suck)

I dont understand why everyone likes masterwork so much, and I probably fall under the category of 'ideological reservations' Putnam was describing.

But given that people do like MW so much, it makes sense they would try to mod for it over vanilla DF.  I dont consider myself involved in the modding community or a real modder, but I would imagine that those creatures made with masterwork in mind belong in the masterwork forum.  If you think masterwork has become more than one mod than the addition of more little modbits is just it consuming more.

As far as how popular it  really, I have no clue.  But I imagine that the vast majority of DF players dont really weigh in on the subject one way or another.  Walking into a MW forum and taking a poll about how many there use masterwork reminds me of faux political polls reporting subjective values as fact.  I would believe that most silent voices on the matter support vanilla DF over masterwork.

If MW is a framework that other modders congregate around, thats whats going to happen.  It happens in other modding communities as well.

[richieelias]

...
But given that people do like MW so much, it makes sense they would try to mod for it over vanilla DF.  I dont consider myself involved in the modding community or a real modder, but I would imagine that those creatures made with masterwork in mind belong in the masterwork forum.  If you think masterwork has become more than one mod than the addition of more little modbits is just it consuming more.
...

You mean the rally where the poll was taken doesnt constitute a valid cross-section of the general public? I am shocked, i say shocked and appalled, sir!

Haha, yes, it infuriates me every time I see it... and that it seems 50% of the population can't see through it...

Honestly though, why would a poll even be necessary? Knowing what % of the DF community plays the mod wouldnt really have an impact on anything, anywhere else in the world. I know I've probably tried almost every DF mod if not just to see what they've done.