Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[miauw62]

Option 2 is intuitive too, considering that the vast majority of mobile oss uses it. And option 1 is only not intuitive because you've always used Windows.

And as I said, a lot of download pages will literally tell you what to type to install them.

[LordBaal]

Andddd I still don't see how this would help to have a 64bit DF.

Something tells me the best shot would be to wait for Toady to release the code once he fells like it and then gather a group of people to franticly optimize and rewrite it to 64bits.

Good knows what kind of hardware and software capabilities will mankind have at hand by then.

[My Urist Eternal]

Good knows what kind of hardware and software capabilities with mankind have at hand by then.

At that point it will be the dwarfs who are actually doing all the coding.

[miauw62]

Andddd I still don't see how this would help to have a 64bit DF.

Something tells me the best shot would be to wait for Toady to release the code once he fells like it and then gather a group of people to franticly optimize and rewrite it to 64bits.

Good knows what kind of hardware and software capabilities with mankind have at hand by then.

The Linux discussion has basically nothing to do with 64-bit DF. But other people earlier in the thread have said that it probably wouldn't be that hard to make DF 64-bit.


(also, the entire point of 64-bit DF is that we can use the hardware we have to it's full potential, even if it's just the RAM)

E:
http://goo.gl/#analytics/goo.gl/zTOLc1/all_time
These are the analytics for the little DFHack progress bar (it tracks visits to pages that the progress bar appears on, which is on the DFhack thread and Skyrunner's signature), and as you can see, even though Windows still has a large mayority, about 8% of these clicks came from a Linux machine, whcih is much higher than the global statistics. 8% is certainly not a small amount and seems worth catering too (and, as I have said, the advantages will not be exclusive to Linux users)

[palu]

installing ubuntu is just as hard as it is to install any other OS.
1. download iso from the ubuntu site
2. burn iso to disk (or usb but that's harder and boo hoo we are 5 year olds that dont know how to do computer so we dont do that)
3. insert disk in computer you want to install ubuntu on
4. reboot computer, mash f keys (this differs from bios to bios)
5. change boot preferences to boot from CD instead of hard drive
6. reboot
7. ubuntu now gives you an ability to run a livecd or install
8. follow the instructions on screen

i'd like to note that these steps are exactly the same for installing windows. (except that you cant run a livecd of windows)

debian even has a webinstall where you download a tiny iso, and during the install of debian you download the rest of the OS.
so network drivers probably aren't a problem, and if they are they are probably just as much of a problem for windows.

What's all this "iso" stuff? How do I burn it to a cd? When I have a windows computer, windows is already installed when I buy it.

There are basically four ways to install something on ubuntu:
way one: (this automatically installs dependencies)
1. open terminal
(optional step: type apt-cache search [searchterm] to search packages)
2. type sudo apt-get install [packagename]
3. type password
4. type Y

How do i know the packagename? Whats the password? Why can't I just buy a cd, or download an installer, and just install it?

way two:
1. open software center
2. search for the thing you need
3. install

That at least seems easy enough. But how do i get to the software center? and what if the thing I want isn't in the software center?

way three: (this is what steam uses)
1. download .deb file
2. double-click .deb file
3. confirm that you trust this file
4. install

Like an installer on windows, right? but where and how do I get these? and How do i know if I trust it?

way four: (rather uncommon)
1. download weird package
2. open terminal
3. navigate to weird package
4. type "./executablename" or "sh startscript"

HUH? What? How do I use this "Terminal"? How am I subbosed to navigate to the wierd package? Too much typing.

(bonus way 5: COMPILE FROM SOURCE
1. download source
2. open terminal
3. navigate to source files
(optional step: type sudo apt-get install g++ to install a c++ compiler)
4. type "sudo make install" )

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! What's compilign? why cant i just run my stupid program? *hides*
Also, how do I run any of these programs once i get them? where's the start menu?

ps: i usually use windows, just not now because i dont have a hard drive atm

I do as well. All spelling and grammar errors intentional.

[Mokkun]

Andddd I still don't see how this would help to have a 64bit DF.

Something tells me the best shot would be to wait for Toady to release the code once he fells like it and then gather a group of people to franticly optimize and rewrite it to 64bits.

Good knows what kind of hardware and software capabilities will mankind have at hand by then.

Main thing I can see 64bit DF helping whit is World gen. It keep crashing on me, and quite often on world history over 350+ years its because it hits the (whit large adress aware) 3.9gb ram limit.

[smakemupagus]

I thought you (palu, not Comic Sans Guy) were really interested in what the process is like to install programs in Linux, and miauw62's post is a good answer.  What else are you getting at by continuing to reply in Comic Sans Guy persona?  The answers to a lot of CSG's questions are pretty trivial.

You can also buy a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled, from Dell among other places.  The Menu button, at least in the version I've uses, is often in the same place the Windows Start button would be in the lower left corner of the screen.  You run Software Center from the Menu which cascades open just like Windows Start menu.  You run your installed programs from the Menu.  If the software you want isn't on the store Center... Well, I don't know. 

If I was speaking to palu rather than CSG I would say, that's when you use one of the other methods to download your software (just like you turn to methods other than Steam when you want to install Dwarf Fortress).  If I was talking to CSG I'd say contact your system administrator.  If CSG was at home I'd tell him to donate his Ubuntu machine to the local middle school and buy a Mac or Windows 8 computer for himself.

---

More on topic -- Yes I agree with the general sentiment, 32bit is obsolete, obviously many users will have 16, 32, 64gb ram soon.  I'm sure that eventually DF will migrate to 64bit (or whatever the contemporary standard is in the distant future when DF releases ^^) but, obviously only Tarn can answer the question of when he plans to prioritize it in the dev cycle.  If you feel strongly about it I'd assume there are already one or more thread in Suggestions about 64bit and voice your support there, so that Tarn knows that lots of people care about it.

[miauw62]

installing ubuntu is just as hard as it is to install any other OS.
1. download iso from the ubuntu site
2. burn iso to disk (or usb but that's harder and boo hoo we are 5 year olds that dont know how to do computer so we dont do that)
3. insert disk in computer you want to install ubuntu on
4. reboot computer, mash f keys (this differs from bios to bios)
5. change boot preferences to boot from CD instead of hard drive
6. reboot
7. ubuntu now gives you an ability to run a livecd or install
8. follow the instructions on screen

i'd like to note that these steps are exactly the same for installing windows. (except that you cant run a livecd of windows)

debian even has a webinstall where you download a tiny iso, and during the install of debian you download the rest of the OS.
so network drivers probably aren't a problem, and if they are they are probably just as much of a problem for windows.

What's all this "iso" stuff? How do I burn it to a cd? When I have a windows computer, windows is already installed when I buy it.

There are basically four ways to install something on ubuntu:
way one: (this automatically installs dependencies)
1. open terminal
(optional step: type apt-cache search [searchterm] to search packages)
2. type sudo apt-get install [packagename]
3. type password
4. type Y

How do i know the packagename? Whats the password? Why can't I just buy a cd, or download an installer, and just install it?

way two:
1. open software center
2. search for the thing you need
3. install

That at least seems easy enough. But how do i get to the software center? and what if the thing I want isn't in the software center?

way three: (this is what steam uses)
1. download .deb file
2. double-click .deb file
3. confirm that you trust this file
4. install

Like an installer on windows, right? but where and how do I get these? and How do i know if I trust it?

way four: (rather uncommon)
1. download weird package
2. open terminal
3. navigate to weird package
4. type "./executablename" or "sh startscript"

HUH? What? How do I use this "Terminal"? How am I subbosed to navigate to the wierd package? Too much typing.

(bonus way 5: COMPILE FROM SOURCE
1. download source
2. open terminal
3. navigate to source files
(optional step: type sudo apt-get install g++ to install a c++ compiler)
4. type "sudo make install" )

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! What's compilign? why cant i just run my stupid program? *hides*
Also, how do I run any of these programs once i get them? where's the start menu?

ps: i usually use windows, just not now because i dont have a hard drive atm

I do as well. All spelling and grammar errors intentional.

being an idiot intentionally is dumb.
For 1 you'll usually know the packagename you need, because it is, as I said, documented on the download page. and you need to remember a password for windows too every time UAC asks you something (which is every five seconds). And an installer would be the .deb file.
the software center is rather obviously on the task bar, and there's even something resembling a start menu (i'd also like to note that windows 8 removed the start menu )
"how do i know if i can trust this" is a dumb thing too, because every time you download an .exe in IE it tells you that the file could be malicious, and whenever you install something it also pops up a message "do you want to allow this program to modify your computer". And a lot of other M$ products contain various safeguards against "untrusted files". Windows has it WORSE than Linux in this regard.
there's plenty of things you can do wrong on windows too.
(4 is, as I said, rather uncommon)
(and you never actually have to use way 5 unless you want bleeding-edge stuff or you're a hardcore FOSS supporter that wants his software to be 100% botnet-free, in which case you're probably using gentoo instead of Ubuntu (which actually contains some proprietary parts iirc))

iirc you can buy some computers with linux preinstalled too, and saying windows is popular because windows is popular is... true, I guess, but I was comparing the complexity of INSTALLING ubuntu to the complexity of INSTALLING Windows. If your computer comes with an OEM copy of Windows, you're not installing it.

[palu]

I thought you (palu, not Comic Sans Guy) were really interested in what the process is like to install programs in Linux, and miauw62's post is a good answer.  What else are you getting at by continuing to reply in Comic Sans Guy persona?  The answers to a lot of CSG's questions are pretty trivial.

You can also buy a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled, from Dell among other places.  The Menu button, at least in the version I've uses, is often in the same place the Windows Start button would be in the lower left corner of the screen.  You run Software Center from the Menu which cascades open just like Windows Start menu.  You run your installed programs from the Menu.  If the software you want isn't on the store Center... Well, I don't know. 

If I was speaking to palu rather than CSG I would say, that's when you use one of the other methods to download your software (just like you turn to methods other than Steam when you want to install Dwarf Fortress).  If I was talking to CSG I'd say contact your system administrator.  If CSG was at home I'd tell him to donate his Ubuntu machine to the local middle school and buy a Mac or Windows 8 computer for himself.

You're right, and I didn't know some of those things. And I don't intend to malign Linux. I had no idea you could buy preloaded computers, and maybe I got too into the role, but CSG (Nice name, BTW) wouldn't know a library, package manager, terminal, or compiler if it hit him over the head.
On the bright side, I now now more about the installation process on Linux. But I think the average user want's things to Just Work^tm, and doesn't care how.
Edit: reply to miauw62, who ted as I finished this post:

Spoiler:  CSG Post (click to show/hide)

installing ubuntu is just as hard as it is to install any other OS.
1. download iso from the ubuntu site
2. burn iso to disk (or usb but that's harder and boo hoo we are 5 year olds that dont know how to do computer so we dont do that)
3. insert disk in computer you want to install ubuntu on
4. reboot computer, mash f keys (this differs from bios to bios)
5. change boot preferences to boot from CD instead of hard drive
6. reboot
7. ubuntu now gives you an ability to run a livecd or install
8. follow the instructions on screen

i'd like to note that these steps are exactly the same for installing windows. (except that you cant run a livecd of windows)

debian even has a webinstall where you download a tiny iso, and during the install of debian you download the rest of the OS.
so network drivers probably aren't a problem, and if they are they are probably just as much of a problem for windows.

What's all this "iso" stuff? How do I burn it to a cd? When I have a windows computer, windows is already installed when I buy it.

There are basically four ways to install something on ubuntu:
way one: (this automatically installs dependencies)
1. open terminal
(optional step: type apt-cache search [searchterm] to search packages)
2. type sudo apt-get install [packagename]
3. type password
4. type Y

How do i know the packagename? Whats the password? Why can't I just buy a cd, or download an installer, and just install it?

way two:
1. open software center
2. search for the thing you need
3. install

That at least seems easy enough. But how do i get to the software center? and what if the thing I want isn't in the software center?

way three: (this is what steam uses)
1. download .deb file
2. double-click .deb file
3. confirm that you trust this file
4. install

Like an installer on windows, right? but where and how do I get these? and How do i know if I trust it?

way four: (rather uncommon)
1. download weird package
2. open terminal
3. navigate to weird package
4. type "./executablename" or "sh startscript"

HUH? What? How do I use this "Terminal"? How am I subbosed to navigate to the wierd package? Too much typing.

(bonus way 5: COMPILE FROM SOURCE
1. download source
2. open terminal
3. navigate to source files
(optional step: type sudo apt-get install g++ to install a c++ compiler)
4. type "sudo make install" )

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! What's compilign? why cant i just run my stupid program? *hides*
Also, how do I run any of these programs once i get them? where's the start menu?

ps: i usually use windows, just not now because i dont have a hard drive atm

I do as well. All spelling and grammar errors intentional.

being an idiot intentionally is dumb.
For 1 you'll usually know the packagename you need, because it is, as I said, documented on the download page. and you need to remember a password for windows too every time UAC asks you something (which is every five seconds). And an installer would be the .deb file.
the software center is rather obviously on the task bar, and there's even something resembling a start menu (i'd also like to note that windows 8 removed the start menu )
"how do i know if i can trust this" is a dumb thing too, because every time you download an .exe in IE it tells you that the file could be malicious, and whenever you install something it also pops up a message "do you want to allow this program to modify your computer". And a lot of other M$ products contain various safeguards against "untrusted files". Windows has it WORSE than Linux in this regard.
there's plenty of things you can do wrong on windows too.
(4 is, as I said, rather uncommon)
(and you never actually have to use way 5 unless you want bleeding-edge stuff or you're a hardcore FOSS supporter that wants his software to be 100% botnet-free, in which case you're probably using gentoo instead of Ubuntu (which actually contains some proprietary parts iirc))

iirc you can buy some computers with linux preinstalled too, and saying windows is popular because windows is popular is... true, I guess, but I was comparing the complexity of INSTALLING ubuntu to the complexity of INSTALLING Windows. If your computer comes with an OEM copy of Windows, you're not installing it.

I was "being an idiot intentionally" because most of us are smart, computer literate people, and sometimes we forget that not evrybody isn't as good at this stuff as us. CSG doesn't know what this security and open source stuff is. I agree, windows asks the same questions as Linux. And yes, CSG doesn't like windows 8 either. Maybe Linux isn't as hard as it seems. But you have to admit, the average idiot doesn't know most of this stuff.

[miauw62]

I could probably make a foolproof guide if anyone wants me to, but in your average forum post I may include many less relevant details.

[palu]

You have friends and family members who are not as computer literate as you, right? Try explaining how to install Linux, or install and run programs on Linux, and watch the utter confusion on their faces. Granted, installing Windows may be similarly hard, but maybe there's a reason more people use it, despite it being more expensive.
I probably shouldn't be getting too involved in this argument. Anyone want some popcorn?

[miauw62]

Yeah, sure.

[Uronym]

You have friends and family members who are not as computer literate as you, right? Try explaining how to install Linux, or install and run programs on Linux, and watch the utter confusion on their faces. Granted, installing Windows may be similarly hard, but maybe there's a reason more people use it, despite it being more expensive.
I probably shouldn't be getting too involved in this argument. Anyone want some popcorn?

It really helps that Windows is pre-installed on most computers you buy. Installing Windows from disc is not always pleasant and involves lots of big long computer words (like "partition"!!!), just like installing any other operating system. Except, well, worse, because Windows likes to overwrite everything else on the hard drive when installing, so you always have to install it before anything else you wanna keep.

I believe there's a way you can simply get Ubuntu as an *.exe or something and run it inside Windows if you want an extremely easy (but slow and somewhat pointless) installation.

[My Urist Eternal]

Guys, the average user never installs Windows themselves. Windows is what comes with their computer. If they somehow found themselves in the position of having to install Windows themselves, they couldn't. They don't know the first thing about partitions, or what an administrator account is for, or what it means to format a hard drive. They also have no idea what Linux is and if you put them in front of Linux, they would be beyond confused. It doesn't mean they're dumb, it just means they're not interested, and there's nothing wrong with that. But as soon as you start talking about packages and scripts and executables and command lines, you've completely lost them. It may seem "easy" to you in the same way a routine operation is "easy" for an experienced surgeon, but it is definitely *not* easy for the normal person who couldn't care less about these topics.

[LordBaal]

Yeah, sure.

It is. Take it from someone that has lived trough OS migration on real life offices, the tar pit of money, time, energy and mental health is the training of the regular Joe into the new OS.